You can run any cylinder on CR250 cases as long as; (i) The cases are genuine OEM cases, not manufactured aftermarket (you may modify genuine CR250 cases) (ii) You must retain the model specific OEM bore x stroke for those cases.
Anything else goes, aftermarket or bespoke anything else you like.......crank, rod, piston, head, ignition, gearbox etc etc
OEM cases on an engine normally fitted to a production motorcycles. That's all there is mate, play to your hearts content@@@
9. SPECIFIC REGULATIONS FOR CLASSES 9.1 GEAR BOX - 125CC, AND 250CC/450CC: These classes shall be open to karts fitted with two-stroke engines (or, in the case of 250/450cc National Karts, four-stroke engines). Permitted engines are identified as being the OEM engine cases that carry an indented, stamped manufacturer’s or owner’s identification code or number and are subject to one of the following: (i) being normally fitted to production motorcycles; (ii) previously and/or currently homologated for use in karting by the FIA or CIK; (iii) approved for use by the Australian Motor Race Commission.
Hi Sam and Nathan, I did read those rules but could not find any reference to non-genuine cylinders being legal for racing. Therefore, an argument could be raised against a non-genuine cylinder as it is not listed as being approved.
Allan, I don't have time to pull out the regs and point it out right now, it went something like; engine modifications are allowed, the key factors were to identify the engine via the OEM cases, there is also a maintaining the OEM stroke clause somewhere which means to remain below the swept volume you need to maintain bore size.
This issue was tested when we put Yamaha TZ cylinders on Honda RS cases......its allowed, you can put any brand/type/custom or ported cylinder you like on your OEM cases as long as you remain below swept volume and maintain the stroke to those OEM cases.
That's the regulations mate, you can read it and pull it apart all you like, I know I'm correct.
I think you are referring to 6.2 "Engines manufactured with plated cylinders, eg, Nikasil, chrome etc, shall have a bore diameter not exceeding the original standard specifications for that make/brand, type and model engine. Re-building and re-plating of damaged plated cylinders is permitted, provided that the original specifications are adhered to. Plated bore cylinders are not permitted to be re-sleeved to take advantage of this tolerance."
I cannot find anything allowing non-genuine cylinders though and it seems that a liberal reading of 6.1 "Modifications are permitted" might have been used to cover it. :)
That's it, modifications are permitted......just stay within the regs on what you can't do. The issue was tested and confirmed when we had TZ cylinders on our RS. At the end of the day, you can weld, modify, add and port material to a Honda cylinder to become a Yamaha looking cylinder, the cylinder you are referring may have started life as another cylinder and modified to what it is, who is to know.....hence legal. What about aftermarket heads and inserts that half the field currently have.....what difference is that to using aftermarket cylinders?
Anyway long story short, keep the same bore size and use a known allowed set of OEM cases and stroke, you can fit whatever cylinder/head you like and be 100% legal.
Didn't Manfred also make a aftermarket cylinder for CR250?
Allan, i'd be getting more than just a cylinder if your going down that road, looks like there will be as many as 5x GasGas' on the grid at the Nationals this year. Throw them in with 3x Yamaha's, 3x KTM's acouple of Honda's and a DEA and we may have a decent field at last!!
Hi Sam and Brian, I am not trying to stop anyone using one of these cylinders but just want to clarify that it is legal to use one. In fact, if they continue to improve as some manufacturers are currently, I will be buying one to use. ;D I just want to make sure it will be legal and as there is nothing mentioning it in the rules, hence I am asking the question now. 8)
Hi Scott, I am all for it and the more we get, the better it will be. I have already sign up for the Championship and have my head down putting the kart together currently. :)
Here is my Kart Check list: Stage 10 cylinder = done. Good pipe = done. Lightning Bolt Ignition = done. Drain pipe size carburetor = done. Special Secret bits no one knows about = done. So all I have to do is get these old bones into shape - game on ;D
Hi Scott, Can you draw me a drivers track map of Phillip Island this weekend as it has been so long since I have raced a National there, I have forgotten the layout. ;D
Photo - Phillip Island 1993 in a Zip Eagle with a Stock YZ250E motor and a good pipe. Best Lap Time 1:45 Max RPM 9,500 @175 kph (Digitron Speedo so could have been wrong) and not many people passed me down the straight until the motor stopped :'( Maybe, I can improve that time a little this year :D
Winner of the meeting - Paul Hillman - Hillman chassis with Hatton Yamaha YZ250A. Best Lap Time 1:44 Max RPM 10,500
The two popular motors at the time were the Yamaha YZ250 and the Kawasaki KX250.
[quote author=Sqizzy link=topic=2489.msg27205#msg27205 date=1423115006] Well there will be at least 15 to 20 saying they are racing and then 6 will turn up. [/quote]
I suppose if 6 Nationals didn't turn up the last couple of years Brendon would still be reigning champ? Can't believe those bad men at the SKA had it reduced to five for championship status!
Scott, we might also have a PVP/ Gas Gas as well. I have bits coming in for it now. Even a spare set of engine mounts just in case someone else has a PVP chassis and wants to get a Gas Gas powerplant.
According to Brendan it should have been a cakewalk, obviously the competition got better. No excuses, we got beat, but you already know that. Winners are grinners?
Bring on this year. You funding a DEA Allan?? Good old Yami power on it this weekend.
The engines should be CIK approved shortly, and will then fit into our current rules with no changes needed. I know THR are getting their engine homoligated and i am assuming the viper and DEA will follow suit.
Hi Scott, Here is a photo of your Dad at the Adelaide F1 Grand Prix 1993 in the what must be the longest held Superkart race number in the history of the sport, #22 Check out the Entrants List.
Scott, sorry mate but it won't be the Paul Platt PVP Gas Gas as far as I know at this point. A member of the Queensland Club has a nice Kelgate kitted PVP. The old engine is about to go over the shoulder and the new 2015 Australian spec Gas Gas will be fitted in about May when the new spec is available here. I do have a spare set of engine mounts for a PVP if anyone is thinking about changing over.
[quote author=Dougie link=topic=2489.msg27226#msg27226 date=1423198939] The engines should be CIK approved shortly, and will then fit into our current rules with no changes needed. I know THR are getting their engine homoligated and i am assuming the viper and DEA will follow suit. [/quote]
Hi Dougie
Your information is a bit skewed. Here is the up-to-date picture (as I believe it). Perhaps you'd like to check with Kevin and Nick regarding what they are actually doing and report back. Wouldn't want the good Aussie folk to get the wrong impression. But equally you may know more than me!!
FACTS 1. Registration of the new MSA registered engines has stalled in Aus because some of the southern states can't agree to them and not enough votes can be acheived to make it happen. (Ashley and Peter Nelson have been helping on this).
2. The CIK does not accept homologation for limited production single cylinder engines into SK2/Div 2. This class is for series production engines with a production number in excess of 200 units to be proved. SK2/Div2 is similar regs to our F250 National with a couple more restrictions (no alternative gear ratios for instance).
3. CIK SK2 engines (currently GasGas 250K and TM250Cross) can be raced in Division 1 against and for the same awards as the twin cylinder karts. Currently the CIK do not arrange races for Div2, but if they did then the TM and GasGas would be eligible.
4. The new MSA engines can be homologated with the CIK as Div 1 engines (10 complete engines to be presented for inspection) and once registered can race Division 1 against and for the same awards as the twin cylinder karts.
5. The CIK do not recognise the concept of the MSA "Kit Engines" in terms of a registration/homologation process (Viper and THR), however, they can be registered as complete Div 1 engines with the CIK on presentation of 10 fully competed units (as per point 4). This is a considertaion for us (and I assume THR and DEA), but would in effect be "taking a punt" on the CIK introducing a single cylinder subcategory to Div1 at some stage. With the CIK taking homologation applications on a quaterly basis, it might be considered hasty to "jump the gun", without a definite statement of intent from the CIK.
6. The French have a registration system for their domestic championship, which allows registration of any regulation compliant 250 single engine (5 complete engines required and 900 Euro fee). At my last info from Kevin THR have progressed some way down the road to this and may or may not complete. We (Viper) may or may not follow this route.
DREAMS 1. That the CIK would recognise the MSA registrations, that homologation into a CIK 250 single class would become a paperwork and money excercise and that the CIK would organise races within the European Championship rounds to include homologated 250 single engines for their own points, prizes and Championship positions.
That information was all at about 1 month ago direct from the CIK by e-mail to me who at that time had not even discussed the matter at Commission level, various proposals having been submitted by the Superkart working group.
I suppose given the above, the important question for you guys is would a single cylinder 250cc engine homologated with the CIK as a Div 1 engine, be eligible to compete in your 250 National class or just in your Div 1 (FE) class.
Hopefully it will all be sorted in the fullness of time, but it seems amazing how something so simple can be turned into something so disjointed, costly and confused when I guess that all we all want is a successful platform that will encourage growth of our sport on a Local, National and Worldwide level.
Ummm, so does that mean GasGas engines currently in Australia are only eligible to run as a 250 Twin not 250 National?? And (excuse the French) who the fuck are the people voting against the introduction of Evo engines, cause I'm sure as shit 'for' them. Probably people who have no interest in the class.
Hi Scott, I will ask our SA NSA Rep. Dean McGinty about the SA club view. ???
As far as I know, I am the only one who owns a National on this side of the fence and I am not against the EVO motor with a 5 speed gearbox. I only have a problem with the 6 speed option so that we keep a level playing field with the non-EVO motors and encourage the budget racer to remain in the class. This is in line with what the UK are doing too and it makes good sense not to burn your current members.
Personally, I am planning to run a CR250 motor as long as it is competitive and with the provision of the EVO cylinders being available, that could be for some time. :)
I am also hoping that we can get a few of the UK front runners down here at some time to provide some international competition for the National class and provide a marketing boost to the class. If our rules are in line with the UK, then it is possible but if they are not, it all gets too hard. :-\
In the future, if the EVO class takes off in Australia and it has a clear performance advantage, then we can revisit the situation as the need arises. :)
With regard to the GasGas, as stated above it is (and has been for some years) CIK homologated as a "series-production" SK2 (Div2) engine. I would presume that that would make it eligible for your 250 National without further process.
The only difference in the UK in this respect is that we don't allow 6-speed in 250 National so the GasGas CIK homologation (in 6-speed format) was not acceptable in the UK. This is why WIWA had to register the 5-speed version through the MSA process.
This is not a possible route for the "new" engines (unless you want to finance manufacture of the balance for me) ;)
The only other thing I would like to say is that I (I'm sure along with THR and DEA) appreciate the effort put in by Ashley and Peter in attempting to progress Aus registration.
It has gerated a lot of interest worldwide thats for sure. Getting the complete EVO engines through is not the problem. What we need is the upgrade kits to get the nod as anyone with a Honda CR250 can put a square bore and stroke setup in to retrofit their old clunker. In our rules, it says we cant alter the bore and stoke of an MX style motor and thats where it falls over. I would hope by now that everyone would except the fact that 250cc mono cylinder regardless of bore and stoke with reed valve will all make similar horsepower if developed. Now I tried to get through a few years ago that as long as you make the swept volume, who cares what bore and stroke it is? That was too much for people to understand and went week at the knees. Then we tried naming the EVO kits and engines and the NSA went mad, had then to expell some people, blah blah blah. I then tried again and failed. I spent 2.5 years trying with no result. My time bashing my head against a brick wall on the NSA and my time on the NSA is coming close to ending. So here is the deal. Victoria and South Australia, get your club and reps into gear and work out what they will approve so the sport can go ahead. Qld and NSW are already in favour.
Thanks for clearing that up, my last conversation with kevin gave a slightly different impression but it was only brief, so thank you for giving us more detailed info.
Ash I cant see why S.A would care at all as we don't have any on the track here and havnt for years I understand there are some in Vic so they might have a stand on it but I can not see why we would be holding anything up for the class.
No problem. There does seem to be a lot of rumour and speculation surrounding the subject.
Wouldn't it be great if the fears and points of disagreement from SA and Victoria could be answered to their satisfaction and that new engines and kit engines could be introduced without another year passing.
I see from the Natsoft results that there was only 1 F250 National in the first race at Phillip Island today (2 entered) and from Mike's comments, the position in SA is even more dire regarding F250 Nat.
For an outsider it's hard to appreciate that the introduction of new, varied, economical and reliable kit could do anything but help to improve that situation in the medium to long-term.
Having said that it's just my opinion, I certainly have a vested interest and at the end of the day, It's your domestic business.
You present a point that raises an interesting discussion applicable to Superkarting Worldwide and not in any way specific to the Victorian Club, whose efficiency I have witnessed first-hand and whose hospitality I have enjoyed on a few occasions and am hopeful of doing again in the near future.
Of course you must canvas opinion of the customers that you already have.
If that number is healthy and increasing, that opinion should be given a massive amount of weight and consideration and can be taken as an indication that you are getting things right and have something to protect, if that number is decreasing and indeed in danger of extinction, perhaps that's not the best course to steer?
What I have seen over the years is that generally the people already "in it" will tend to vote to protect what they perceive as their investment/position, not necessarily what is best for the long-term future of their class and the sport as a whole, which must be the main consideration for the clubs/organisers.
The Victorian, and all other clubs, obviously takes a view on that balance relevant to their views, aims and aspirations and it would be arrogant of me to question that.
Just for your interest this is how it went in the UK:
I suppose at the end of the day, "the proof of the pudding will be in the eating". In the UK we have some 100 registered F250 National competitors racing in a series owned by the Motor Sports Association, administered by the British Superkart Association and race meetings run by 3 kart clubs on their behalf. It's probably fair to say that the class had perhaps become a little stagnant and "lacklustre". The management view was that action should be taken with the writing on the wall rather than waiting for the class to fall into decline from where a recovery is always harder to engineer.
The MSA then invited any interested parties to manufacture and register new engines to the class regulations. 4 manufacturers took up this challenge, Viper, THR, GasGas, DEA.
The new engines were introduced (and particularly the way they were introduced), was against a very strong lobby who wanted to maintain the status quo. After long an sometimes painful discussions the BSA stood strong and made the decisions based on what they believed was best for the future health of the class and it's competitors, whilst considering the views of all it's registered drivers as it thought appropriate. What we have now seen over the last 12 months is a massive growth in interest in the class and an air of excitement and anticipation. The ultimate wisdom of those decisions will be played out over the next few years.
Ian, it was the best decision they ever made. It now guarantees the competition continues for years well after the major motocross motorcycle manufacturers stopped making them. It has also increased interest here as well.
There are really three National entrants in Victoria, Raff, Scott Appledore and myself that can 6 different drivers in karts last year. I must have missed the meeting where it came up for a vote. Suppose I better ask the delegates on Wednesday night how they voted?
Here's what I found in the minutes on what the club agreed on.
There was discussion re the motion that previously homologated engines be recognized automatically by AMRC, and also those engines recognized currently or previously by the MSA/BSA be approved also. There was discussion via email after the teleconference - what we agreed on was that if an engine that is approved for use in the UK by the MSA/BSA – for it to be approved here, it would have to come through the NSA so that we could check its eligibility for use in Australia. If we believed it to be suitable we would then submit it to CAMS for approval.
Which lead to this: http://docs.cams.com.au/Regulations/2014%20Bulletins/B14-018%20-%20Superkart%20Technical%20Regulations.pdf
My proposal had "(ii) previously and/or currently homologated for use in karting by the CIK/ FIA and BSA/MSA" but the BSA/ MSA component made people shaky in the knees so we only got "(ii) previously and/or currently homologated for use in karting by the FIA or CIK". Its no problems approving the complete engines but what is needed is the complete engines and the Evo kits to retrofit the old Honda CR. But currently you cant alter the bore and stroke as the engines are identified by the engine cases. So a CR250 has to stay 66 x 72 (close engough) and not be 68 x 68 like the EVO upgrade. Could be easily done by adding as slight amendment to 1 line. Anyhow let me know whan your ready and we will try it again. Will I make any money out of it? NO NO NO NO but I have been offered the Australian Dealership on an EVO engine but turned it down. Will it be good for the sport having more engine manufacturers? I think so. And thats what its all about, the sport.
Maybe, this can be done in 2 steps. Step 1. Change the rule to reflect only the total capacity of 250cc for the National class and not the bore size - this should be very simply as the rule only needs a deletion of the bore reference as the total capacity is already there.
This makes it easy for anyone who is rebuilding a CR250 (possibly other brands if the demand is there) or thinking of a entering the class to purchase a proven race ready setup without having to do the hard work by themselves at a reduced price to a full EVO motor. It also allows an upgrade path in the future to a full EVO motor.
I am one budget racer who would take advantage of this option until the EVO motors prove themselves a better option. :).
2. Submit the complete EVO motors as a separate motion. As this needs to be talked about with the clubs and NSA officials further, it might take a little longer.
Comments39
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
(i) The cases are genuine OEM cases, not manufactured aftermarket (you may modify genuine CR250 cases)
(ii) You must retain the model specific OEM bore x stroke for those cases.
Anything else goes, aftermarket or bespoke anything else you like.......crank, rod, piston, head, ignition, gearbox etc etc
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Thanks for that information. :)
Can you point me to the reference for that as I could not see where it listed non-genuine cylinders.
Thanks and regards
Allan.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
OEM cases on an engine normally fitted to a production motorcycles. That's all there is mate, play to your hearts content@@@
9. SPECIFIC REGULATIONS FOR CLASSES
9.1 GEAR BOX - 125CC, AND 250CC/450CC: These classes shall be open to karts fitted with two-stroke
engines (or, in the case of 250/450cc National Karts, four-stroke engines). Permitted engines are identified as
being the OEM engine cases that carry an indented, stamped manufacturer’s or owner’s identification code or
number and are subject to one of the following:
(i) being normally fitted to production motorcycles;
(ii) previously and/or currently homologated for use in karting by the FIA or CIK;
(iii) approved for use by the Australian Motor Race Commission.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I did read those rules but could not find any reference to non-genuine cylinders being legal for racing. Therefore, an argument could be raised against a non-genuine cylinder as it is not listed as being approved.
Regards
Allan.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
This issue was tested when we put Yamaha TZ cylinders on Honda RS cases......its allowed, you can put any brand/type/custom or ported cylinder you like on your OEM cases as long as you remain below swept volume and maintain the stroke to those OEM cases.
That's the regulations mate, you can read it and pull it apart all you like, I know I'm correct.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I think you are referring to 6.2
"Engines manufactured with plated cylinders, eg, Nikasil, chrome etc, shall have a bore
diameter not exceeding the original standard specifications for that make/brand, type and model engine.
Re-building and re-plating of damaged plated cylinders is permitted, provided that the original specifications
are adhered to. Plated bore cylinders are not permitted to be re-sleeved to take advantage of this tolerance."
I cannot find anything allowing non-genuine cylinders though and it seems that a liberal reading of 6.1 "Modifications are permitted" might have been used to cover it. :)
Regards
Allan.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
The issue was tested and confirmed when we had TZ cylinders on our RS.
At the end of the day, you can weld, modify, add and port material to a Honda cylinder to become a Yamaha looking cylinder, the cylinder you are referring may have started life as another cylinder and modified to what it is, who is to know.....hence legal.
What about aftermarket heads and inserts that half the field currently have.....what difference is that to using aftermarket cylinders?
Anyway long story short, keep the same bore size and use a known allowed set of OEM cases and stroke, you can fit whatever cylinder/head you like and be 100% legal.
Didn't Manfred also make a aftermarket cylinder for CR250?
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I am not trying to stop anyone using one of these cylinders but just want to clarify that it is legal to use one. In fact, if they continue to improve as some manufacturers are currently, I will be buying one to use. ;D
I just want to make sure it will be legal and as there is nothing mentioning it in the rules, hence I am asking the question now. 8)
Hi Scott,
I am all for it and the more we get, the better it will be. I have already sign up for the Championship and have my head down putting the kart together currently. :)
Here is my Kart Check list:
Stage 10 cylinder = done.
Good pipe = done.
Lightning Bolt Ignition = done.
Drain pipe size carburetor = done.
Special Secret bits no one knows about = done.
So all I have to do is get these old bones into shape - game on ;D
Regards,
Allan.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Who is running a National at Phillip Island this weekend ???
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Owen i would say the following would be running, maybe you know of others??
Raff Pironti
Allan Linton
Dalton Rowell
Dan Lewis
Tim Weir
Dale Williams
Jordan Ford
John Pellicano
Aaron Cogger
Scott Appledore
Maybes....
Frank Giglio
Sean Mayberly
Jack McKay
Pelli's second kart
TBA -My third kart
Ten would be good, fifteen would be sensational!!
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Can you draw me a drivers track map of Phillip Island this weekend as it has been so long since I have raced a National there, I have forgotten the layout. ;D
Photo - Phillip Island 1993 in a Zip Eagle with a Stock YZ250E motor and a good pipe. Best Lap Time 1:45
Max RPM 9,500 @175 kph (Digitron Speedo so could have been wrong) and not many people passed me down the straight until the motor stopped :'(
Maybe, I can improve that time a little this year :D
Winner of the meeting - Paul Hillman - Hillman chassis with Hatton Yamaha YZ250A. Best Lap Time 1:44 Max RPM 10,500
The two popular motors at the time were the Yamaha YZ250 and the Kawasaki KX250.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Well there will be at least 15 to 20 saying they are racing and then 6 will turn up.
[/quote]
Pretty much sums it up to a "T" Mr Rowell.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I suppose if 6 Nationals didn't turn up the last couple of years Brendon would still be reigning champ? Can't believe those bad men at the SKA had it reduced to five for championship status!
Bring on this year and some positivity.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
we might also have a PVP/ Gas Gas as well. I have bits coming in for it now. Even a spare set of engine mounts just in case someone else has a PVP chassis and wants to get a Gas Gas powerplant.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Does anyone know where the rule changes are at for the EVO motors currently; are we going to have them approved this year ???
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Bring on this year. You funding a DEA Allan?? Good old Yami power on it this weekend.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I was quoting you: "Throw them in with 3x Yamaha's, 3x KTM's acouple of Honda's and a DEA and we may have a decent field at last!!" ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Here is a photo of your Dad at the Adelaide F1 Grand Prix 1993 in the what must be the longest held Superkart race number in the history of the sport, #22
Check out the Entrants List.
Regards
Allan
[attachment deleted by admin]
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
sorry mate but it won't be the Paul Platt PVP Gas Gas as far as I know at this point. A member of the Queensland Club has a nice Kelgate kitted PVP. The old engine is about to go over the shoulder and the new 2015 Australian spec Gas Gas will be fitted in about May when the new spec is available here.
I do have a spare set of engine mounts for a PVP if anyone is thinking about changing over.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
The engines should be CIK approved shortly, and will then fit into our current rules with no changes needed. I know THR are getting their engine homoligated and i am assuming the viper and DEA will follow suit.
[/quote]
Hi Dougie
Your information is a bit skewed. Here is the up-to-date picture (as I believe it). Perhaps you'd like to check with Kevin and Nick regarding what they are actually doing and report back. Wouldn't want the good Aussie folk to get the wrong impression. But equally you may know more than me!!
FACTS
1. Registration of the new MSA registered engines has stalled in Aus because some of the southern states can't agree to them and not enough votes can be acheived to make it happen. (Ashley and Peter Nelson have been helping on this).
2. The CIK does not accept homologation for limited production single cylinder engines into SK2/Div 2. This class is for series production engines with a production number in excess of 200 units to be proved. SK2/Div2 is similar regs to our F250 National with a couple more restrictions (no alternative gear ratios for instance).
3. CIK SK2 engines (currently GasGas 250K and TM250Cross) can be raced in Division 1 against and for the same awards as the twin cylinder karts. Currently the CIK do not arrange races for Div2, but if they did then the TM and GasGas would be eligible.
4. The new MSA engines can be homologated with the CIK as Div 1 engines (10 complete engines to be presented for inspection) and once registered can race Division 1 against and for the same awards as the twin cylinder karts.
5. The CIK do not recognise the concept of the MSA "Kit Engines" in terms of a registration/homologation process (Viper and THR), however, they can be registered as complete Div 1 engines with the CIK on presentation of 10 fully competed units (as per point 4). This is a considertaion for us (and I assume THR and DEA), but would in effect be "taking a punt" on the CIK introducing a single cylinder subcategory to Div1 at some stage. With the CIK taking homologation applications on a quaterly basis, it might be considered hasty to "jump the gun", without a definite statement of intent from the CIK.
6. The French have a registration system for their domestic championship, which allows registration of any regulation compliant 250 single engine (5 complete engines required and 900 Euro fee). At my last info from Kevin THR have progressed some way down the road to this and may or may not complete. We (Viper) may or may not follow this route.
DREAMS
1. That the CIK would recognise the MSA registrations, that homologation into a CIK 250 single class would become a paperwork and money excercise and that the CIK would organise races within the European Championship rounds to include homologated 250 single engines for their own points, prizes and Championship positions.
That information was all at about 1 month ago direct from the CIK by e-mail to me who at that time had not even discussed the matter at Commission level, various proposals having been submitted by the Superkart working group.
I suppose given the above, the important question for you guys is would a single cylinder 250cc engine homologated with the CIK as a Div 1 engine, be eligible to compete in your 250 National class or just in your Div 1 (FE) class.
Hopefully it will all be sorted in the fullness of time, but it seems amazing how something so simple can be turned into something so disjointed, costly and confused when I guess that all we all want is a successful platform that will encourage growth of our sport on a Local, National and Worldwide level.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I will ask our SA NSA Rep. Dean McGinty about the SA club view. ???
As far as I know, I am the only one who owns a National on this side of the fence and I am not against the EVO motor with a 5 speed gearbox. I only have a problem with the 6 speed option so that we keep a level playing field with the non-EVO motors and encourage the budget racer to remain in the class. This is in line with what the UK are doing too and it makes good sense not to burn your current members.
Personally, I am planning to run a CR250 motor as long as it is competitive and with the provision of the EVO cylinders being available, that could be for some time. :)
I am also hoping that we can get a few of the UK front runners down here at some time to provide some international competition for the National class and provide a marketing boost to the class. If our rules are in line with the UK, then it is possible but if they are not, it all gets too hard. :-\
In the future, if the EVO class takes off in Australia and it has a clear performance advantage, then we can revisit the situation as the need arises. :)
Regards
Allan
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
With regard to the GasGas, as stated above it is (and has been for some years) CIK homologated as a "series-production" SK2 (Div2) engine. I would presume that that would make it eligible for your 250 National without further process.
The only difference in the UK in this respect is that we don't allow 6-speed in 250 National so the GasGas CIK homologation (in 6-speed format) was not acceptable in the UK. This is why WIWA had to register the 5-speed version through the MSA process.
This is not a possible route for the "new" engines (unless you want to finance manufacture of the balance for me) ;)
The only other thing I would like to say is that I (I'm sure along with THR and DEA) appreciate the effort put in by Ashley and Peter in attempting to progress Aus registration.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
In our rules, it says we cant alter the bore and stoke of an MX style motor and thats where it falls over. I would hope by now that everyone would except the fact that 250cc mono cylinder regardless of bore and stoke with reed valve will all make similar horsepower if developed.
Now I tried to get through a few years ago that as long as you make the swept volume, who cares what bore and stroke it is? That was too much for people to understand and went week at the knees. Then we tried naming the EVO kits and engines and the NSA went mad, had then to expell some people, blah blah blah.
I then tried again and failed. I spent 2.5 years trying with no result. My time bashing my head against a brick wall on the NSA and my time on the NSA is coming close to ending.
So here is the deal. Victoria and South Australia, get your club and reps into gear and work out what they will approve so the sport can go ahead. Qld and NSW are already in favour.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Thanks for clearing that up, my last conversation with kevin gave a slightly different impression but it was only brief, so thank you for giving us more detailed info.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I cant see why S.A would care at all as we don't have any on the track here and havnt for years I understand there are some in Vic so they might have a stand on it but I can not see why we would be holding anything up for the class.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
No problem. There does seem to be a lot of rumour and speculation surrounding the subject.
Wouldn't it be great if the fears and points of disagreement from SA and Victoria could be answered to their satisfaction and that new engines and kit engines could be introduced without another year passing.
I see from the Natsoft results that there was only 1 F250 National in the first race at Phillip Island today (2 entered) and from Mike's comments, the position in SA is even more dire regarding F250 Nat.
For an outsider it's hard to appreciate that the introduction of new, varied, economical and reliable kit could do anything but help to improve that situation in the medium to long-term.
Having said that it's just my opinion, I certainly have a vested interest and at the end of the day, It's your domestic business.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
You present a point that raises an interesting discussion applicable to Superkarting Worldwide and not in any way specific to the Victorian Club, whose efficiency I have witnessed first-hand and whose hospitality I have enjoyed on a few occasions and am hopeful of doing again in the near future.
Of course you must canvas opinion of the customers that you already have.
If that number is healthy and increasing, that opinion should be given a massive amount of weight and consideration and can be taken as an indication that you are getting things right and have something to protect, if that number is decreasing and indeed in danger of extinction, perhaps that's not the best course to steer?
What I have seen over the years is that generally the people already "in it" will tend to vote to protect what they perceive as their investment/position, not necessarily what is best for the long-term future of their class and the sport as a whole, which must be the main consideration for the clubs/organisers.
The Victorian, and all other clubs, obviously takes a view on that balance relevant to their views, aims and aspirations and it would be arrogant of me to question that.
Just for your interest this is how it went in the UK:
I suppose at the end of the day, "the proof of the pudding will be in the eating". In the UK we have some 100 registered F250 National competitors racing in a series owned by the Motor Sports Association, administered by the British Superkart Association and race meetings run by 3 kart clubs on their behalf. It's probably fair to say that the class had perhaps become a little stagnant and "lacklustre".
The management view was that action should be taken with the writing on the wall rather than waiting for the class to fall into decline from where a recovery is always harder to engineer.
The MSA then invited any interested parties to manufacture and register new engines to the class regulations. 4 manufacturers took up this challenge, Viper, THR, GasGas, DEA.
The new engines were introduced (and particularly the way they were introduced), was against a very strong lobby who wanted to maintain the status quo. After long an sometimes painful discussions the BSA stood strong and made the decisions based on what they believed was best for the future health of the class and it's competitors, whilst considering the views of all it's registered drivers as it thought appropriate.
What we have now seen over the last 12 months is a massive growth in interest in the class and an air of excitement and anticipation. The ultimate wisdom of those decisions will be played out over the next few years.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
it was the best decision they ever made. It now guarantees the competition continues for years well after the major motocross motorcycle manufacturers stopped making them. It has also increased interest here as well.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
There was discussion re the motion that previously homologated engines be recognized automatically by AMRC, and also those engines recognized currently or previously by the MSA/BSA be approved also. There was discussion via email after the teleconference - what we agreed on was that if an engine that is approved for use in the UK by the MSA/BSA – for it to be approved here, it would have to come through the NSA so that we could check its eligibility for use in Australia. If we believed it to be suitable we would then submit it to CAMS for approval.
Which lead to this:
http://docs.cams.com.au/Regulations/2014%20Bulletins/B14-018%20-%20Superkart%20Technical%20Regulations.pdf
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
Its no problems approving the complete engines but what is needed is the complete engines and the Evo kits to retrofit the old Honda CR. But currently you cant alter the bore and stroke as the engines are identified by the engine cases. So a CR250 has to stay 66 x 72 (close engough) and not be 68 x 68 like the EVO upgrade.
Could be easily done by adding as slight amendment to 1 line. Anyhow let me know whan your ready and we will try it again.
Will I make any money out of it? NO NO NO NO but I have been offered the Australian Dealership on an EVO engine but turned it down.
Will it be good for the sport having more engine manufacturers? I think so. And thats what its all about, the sport.
Re: EVO Cylinder on CR250
I agree with you. :)
Maybe, this can be done in 2 steps.
Step 1.
Change the rule to reflect only the total capacity of 250cc for the National class and not the bore size - this should be very simply as the rule only needs a deletion of the bore reference as the total capacity is already there.
This makes it easy for anyone who is rebuilding a CR250 (possibly other brands if the demand is there) or thinking of a entering the class to purchase a proven race ready setup without having to do the hard work by themselves at a reduced price to a full EVO motor. It also allows an upgrade path in the future to a full EVO motor.
I am one budget racer who would take advantage of this option until the EVO motors prove themselves a better option. :).
2. Submit the complete EVO motors as a separate motion.
As this needs to be talked about with the clubs and NSA officials further, it might take a little longer.
Regards
Allan.