Hi Sam,
I could email you direct for this question but I think it might be interesting for others as well so ....
The seat position in the Stock Honda rules defines:
3.3 No point of the seat back shall extend beyond the rear axle including any part of its head rest as per Figure D (over page).
I was wondering why this rule was added as the previous rule 3.2 regarding seat height seems to make sure there are no laydown seats:
No point of the seat back shall extend beyond the rear axle (as per Figure D) and the highest point of the seat back shall measure at least 360mm minimum off the ground measured in a vertical plane.
It seems to me that balancing the kart is what we all are chasing and if you have to move the seat further to rear to do that with a lighter driver; then what is the harm?
Regards
Allan.
Comments24
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
The Rotax Max and 100 cc went through all this bull before which didn't help with the fighting.
If you want to setup your seat like Rick Hobman, good luck to you, see how his chassis no longer works. ;)
The rules are written for fairness for all without any advantage if you spend time and money.
Here is my tip, the moment you move the seat away from the factory setup on a CIK sprint chassis, that's when you start going backwards.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Please put down the gun :o :).
I know that you have put a lot of work into these rules and I appreciate your effort – it is a credit to you and the others who helped, but to improve the experience for all, questions can be helpful for future changes. ???
It seems to me that Rick’s seat probably does not pass rule 3.2 and maybe someone will take him up on it someday – for me; I don’t care if that is what feels good to him. 8)
I agree with you that if we over balance the kart, it will be slower but I am talking about finding the right balance within the driver’s weight for maximum performance.
My kart was not balanced right for my weight at Wakefield and after scaling it when I returned home, I could see where I needed to change it. The easiest way would be to move the seat but rule 3.3 stops me doing that and so I will have to do it another way which is not as easy; hence the question.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Ricks kart does meet the rules, I checked it at Mallala.
Secondly, most of the kart handling is done out of the front end. If you need to move the seat beyond the rear axle you thinking completely wrong.......beyond the rear axle is by far way beyond. if your kart is too twitchy you can adjust front end caster/camber thingys to do so.
Take a look at the guys at the front, look at the fast lap times.......they come from drivers starting at 65kgs up to 90kg all with BRM chassis same as yours.
Rules on seat were very painstakingly done to be fair for ALL with way too much consultation to keep everyone happy......that means drivers of all weights, heights, ribs and necks.
If you need to go beyond then it is entering a point where an advantage could be taken, almost like Rick is trying but restricted by the rule......so the rule works ;)
If people don't agree with the rule, there is 125GB open class for them, I say that because everyone at the time agreed with the seat rule, however some thought it went too far as it is!
Everyone wants stock, everyone wants fair, wants the same as the next guy.........so rules need to draw a line to have this.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
My kart was not balanced right for my weight at Wakefield and after scaling it when I returned home, I could see where I needed to change it.
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Please don't tell me you are factoring corner weights from the Wakefield carport concrete? :o
Besides concrete never being level, the front end adjustment throws corner weights out too.
So does tyre diameter, tyre pressure.....blah blah blah.
Only very few people have seen me do what this takes to be fine tune accurate, anything less is just pissing in the wind.
Anyway out of curiosity Alan, did you change or move the seat from where I provided it? If not, front end mate. ;)
What about the nose cone, have you got 60mm min nose height?........That what these chassis want.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
I raise the seat 10mm only - I am more protective of my arse than you guys - good thing I did as the seat is worn down to the glass after Wakefield :o
I played with the front end but never had a problem with front grip - really it was too much and I reduced it to try and find some rear grip / balance - I got a better balance but it was still too loose overall - I pushed it hard trying to get the times with two big off's at turns 2 and on also on the hill.
I can send you the data if you like and you can have a look. ???
I raised the nose but maybe only 40mm although I have a different nose to the Stocky one. It did not scrape at all. Front end was perfect in terms of steering and tyre wear.
Rear Tyres have been working hard from the graining pattern.
Sam, I know that I need some seat time after all these years but I have though about and I sure that I could have got more out of the kart if the grip had been there.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
If it's twichy under brakes, lift the nose.
The bottom of the seat on all my karts is level with the bottom of the main rails, only very few scraps and it's all in the pits.......I would like to go lower but then I need to glass it all the time.
I set the seat bottoms to be square and flush to the ground like this. If you look at the side bolts, this seat is as far back as you will ever go, I like it further forward.....nothing to do with driver height, everything to do with kart balance.
[URL=http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/samzavaglia/media/Hosting/IMG_20121216_181557.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/samzavaglia/Hosting/IMG_20121216_181557.jpg[/img][/URL]
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Dare I say as you get faster and more time in the seat, you will go back to a "twitchier" setup for lap times. The squirrels kart is so twitchy, I just can't understand it when I'm following but it comes off the corners so fast.......that's why I rate the squirrel, his kart setup would make most drivers spin out 10 times a race but the squirrel never makes a mistake and puts it to good use. ;)
So that's it, everyone has enough information to tinker over Christmas.......hohohohohohoho
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
The steering arms I moved to the upper bolt holes on the shaft and went to the ackerman holes not the centre hole as the rod ends were only in the steering rods by the bare miniumum with the centre hole. In regards to the steering arms on the stub axle they were already in the outer bolt holes as I got it from you.
Sam, I appreciate your comments and maybe I will do full circle in the future but for me to go quicker now, I have to have more rear grip. That will mean more weight to the rear at this time - a bit like what you did more Warren at Mallala. :)
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Like I said when it was delivered, leave it alone and go for a drive........
Don't try to over analise everything and just drive it......everything is a varible and most varibles were considered and the hard work was done for you when I setup, even for SL6 tyres I took into consideration.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
I am as fussy as the majority I would suspect with chassis setup/balance.
My BRM is on rails the way Sam set it up. I did raise nosecone to the top hole, stockman type and that was it apart from upgrade the steering arms.
On MG Yellows, you would really need to be doing a lot wrong to spin/run off the circuit. And I'm one of the slow guys with bad ribs :) that's how good they handle.
Maybe try revert back to the way Sam set it up and test at Mallala ? I really think your base setup would be bang on, then all you would do is fine tune with wheel track/nose cone height/tyre pressures.
I'm sure you will sort it mate, will only be fine tuning.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
The rod ends did not have what I felt was enough threads in the tubes to be safe - that is why I changed to the ackerman settings; so I could screw the rod ends in further. Now, that you said that the steering arm holes should be in centre or inside holes; I could try the centre position but given that our corners are not large radiuses, the ackerman would not have made much difference in the end.
I have attached a photo for you to see the seat position - from your photo, my seat is forward of yours given the distance between the seat edge as a guide.
There is only one other thing that Owen and I talked about that might also be the problem and that is the axle is soft and according to him; it is useless wasting my time with it.
The kart felt like it had reached a point that maybe was the tyres lifting off the track and any more committment meant it started to slide and I could not recover it.
Art,
I stayed with the Dunlops because I believe that the agreement made to run them was a good thing. I still do!
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Why is there a bar going across the rear rails.....where did that come from?
That's going to make things much worst by helping it pickup the inside rear which is less rear rubber on the track.
Sounds like their is much more going on there than just a seat position. ;)
Plus your running hard tyres........don't get it why you trying to stiff up the chassis.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Why is the steering wheel so small.....That's not what I supplied with the kart and that's not going to help either.
Again that will speed up your steering which you don't want and trying to take out.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Out of interest; what top speed are you guys seeing on the straight at Wakefield Park? My best was 162klm's.
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Sounds about right, I use 20/23 which means topped out in 5th gear at 12,400RPM is 161klms.
Very rare do I engage 6th gear unless I get some awesome toe from a 125GP kart and then proceed to pass them. :D
After doing that you get accused of cheating......or "not so Stock Honda".
This is where setup and knowledge is faster than HP and stupidity.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
The small steering wheel lasted one race and Peter Woodgate was kind enough to lend me a normally size wheel.
That was my mistake as I thought these Stock Honda would be light on the steering but just the opposite. The wheel change made a big difference and I felt back in control of the kart again.
I ran 20T x 23T on Saturday and 20T x 24T on Sunday. I didn't notice a big difference in lap times though.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
I could try the centre position but given that our corners are not large radiuses, the ackerman would not have made much difference in the end.
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Really, did you have a look what Woodgate makes for his customer karts........seriously.....don't make me come over and weld up your ackerman holes.
Don't try and work the chassis things out over a bar stool and laptop, if theory was that easy the perfect kart would have been designed and built 20 years ago. Put it back where I had everything and take it out for a run and fine dial everything from there using only the feel and lap times to determine what's best.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
The small steering wheel lasted one race and Peter Woodgate was kind enough to lend me a normally size wheel.
That was my mistake as I thought these Stock Honda would be light on the steering but just the opposite. The wheel change made a big difference and I felt back in control of the kart again.
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See sometimes I do know stuff....... it's cost me over 20 years and lots and lots and lots of money but i think it's been worth it ;) :D
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
There is only one other thing that Owen and I talked about that might also be the problem and that is the axle is soft and according to him; it is useless wasting my time with it.
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I've won many many many races with soft axle and fast lap times........beaten the squirrel with it too many times.......ohhh no, now the squirrel knows.......
However, Medium axle is good all round and stays put with the bearing grub screws better too....just ask Warren about that one.
Anyway if you ask me, axle grade is just fine tuning in road racing......don't over think it, there is much more important areas to think about.
Think about it like this, if your kart is sh*t to begin with, you only trying to fine tune the sh*t and you will still end up with a piece of fine tuned sh*t.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
I do appreciate your ability more after Wakefield Park though having seen your 1:03 laps times. :)
It takes some doing to get consistant fast laps in those times - who knows, you might have even beat Dalton .... :'(
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
Sam, I don't think anyone in Superkarting doubts your ability to setup or drive a kart :o We just want the chance to have an option too, right or wrong as it might be ;D
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Absolutely Alan, I couldn't agree more.
I just want to take out the hard work for the new guys so they enjoy it best they can.
If they want to take a different avenue to what I have said or given, awesome to them, as long as they don't come back and bust my chops that it doesn't work with new ideas on how to make it work.
When I first started in 100NGB, there was very little help for beginners in setup and anybody that was around in my area didn't really know much and put out their hand for dodgy work.
Today I strive for our sport to be much better in that respect to what it was 20+ years ago without the witchcraft or black magic for an "entry level" gearbox class.
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda
One of the things I like about the Stock Honda class is the friendliness and the sharing of knowledge. This is exactly how the Superkarting scene was when I first came into the sport and it flourished – I appreciated your effort and hard work to this class especially and Superkarting generally; I am sure the others drivers feel the same.
Now, about you coming over and welding up my Ackerman steering … can you please find some else’s kart to practice your welding on?
Re: Seat Position - Stock Honda