I believe its time for a new class in superkarting, the 250 GP class.
I would like to share my thoughts on the current situation regarding the 250 international class.
It seems to me that quite alot of competitors are being overlooked and inevitably leaving the sport as GP style V-twins (Honda RS250/Yamaha TZ) have become overshadowed by inline type engines. This intern has caused demand for and value of these type of karts to drop off. We, as a group can prevent this from happening and save valued karts, competitors and club members. Firstly, the only thing that now makes these karts less desirable/valuable is the Class they currently compete under. If we were to introduce a new class for the people who still have and are still wanting to race these karts, club numbers would increase, event entries would increase and the second hand resale value would increase. It stands to reason the more competitive a kart is the more people want it and the more its worth. If there's no chance of a kart wining no one wants it and its not worth anything. GP motorcycle single crank V configured twin-cylinder engine (eg.Honda rs250) are currently classed the same as Kart specific 2 crank inline engines (not really anything like each other). the honda can't compete and so is worth nothing. Other engine types (250cc single cylinders or 125cc) also have no chance of competing against the kart specific 250cc Inlines and would be worth less then nothing if forced to compete in the same class, so obviously they are put in their own class, they are competitive amongst themselves and hence they are worth something. I believe it's now also obvious that GP v-twins should also have there own class. Sadly its has already reached the point where now 125cc karts are often worth more then the GP engine V-twins, and in a sport were part of the appeal is low cost (relative to most motorsport) this massive devaluation of peoples Karts is making it harder for people to upgrade to the (currently needed to compete) newer karts and so the problem is compounded. Its about time we faced the fact Inlines are the premier class and the GP based v-twins should be given a class of there own. This would bring lost members back as well as large numbers of currently garage stricken (still fast) GP based V-twins. It wouldn't be long befor people remembered just how good they are, and befor you know it their worth something again. New and existing members who already own and are quite happy with there GP engine karts, shouldn't be able to race in organised events without feeling like there wasting there time/money. It is essential to regain the large numbers of GP style 250 V-twin engined superkarts that are still here in Australia, aswell as the support businesses that have developed along side these types engines (Including business's like Stockman Superkarts.) As active members I feel compelled to ensure our sport and its class/regulations reflect the interests/intentions of its members. Just think for a second, how many stockman honda's used to be in your club and now go waisted in some back shed somewhere? lets bring em back.
Comments50
Re: Moving Forward
While you make a point on some of the disparity, there is much more variable here than simply Inline vs Vee.
Take for example;
(i) older inline v newer inline
(ii) older vee v newer vee
What won the championship last year?
What won the first championship race this year?
Like anything in an 'open class', its more like a $$$ + talent v anything else.
With $$$ + development, you can make a vee just as competitive against any inline. This means fabrication of own engine internals, just like the expensive inlines have done over the old Rotax 256.
Remember, this is an [u]open class[/u].
So what you need to ask yourself is this...... if you separate the two,
(i) how many inlines are left at Championship Level?
(ii) how many vees will you have at Championship Level?
(iii) are there too many classes being created in proportion to partcipation?
Will this create greater overall 250 twin participation in the Championship to the promoter?
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But:
Our governing body some years ago culled a couple of classes "at Championship level" as they felt we had too many.
Now they only award a couple of "Australian titles".
At club level we can do whatever we want and ad as many divisions or classes as we see fit.
But at Championship level you will need to trade off a current championship to the "new" class.
Which other class will you .... off?
And what for? two race meetings a year? Clubs NEED your support to race nearly every month.
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If you have the spare 20k to bolt one of these new engines onto a well sorted chassis and have the talent you should be up in the top 5.
In the case of the V there has been no factory development for a number of years so you need to know what you are doing or have a handy tuner like Brian to be able to get the best out of it for you.
Like Sam said though it’s not as simple as V verses inline, for instance you can’t compare my engine to that of Russ’s or Jason Smith’s as there is a heap more development in the later engines.
As far as I can see there is no easy way to get to the front, you either spend big money on a brand new inline or you spend big money on getting the performance out of a V or older style inline but you can’t separate the class as there are too many variables, it is what it is and won’t get any easier.
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Perhaps control tyres, 2 sets of tyres, carbie sizes restricted?
Just a thought.[/quote]
I think it's time for some controls and get parity back into the sport.
It IS after all a DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP, is it not?
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[quote]Why dont we put some rules on the Inter class to slow the development down. Every other class of motorsport is heading that way.
Perhaps control tyres, 2 sets of tyres, carbie sizes restricted?
Just a thought.[/quote]
I think it's time for some controls and get parity back into the sport.
It IS after all a DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP, is it not?
[/quote]
Parity? Its an open class that allows tuners and people who think outside the square to try things. If you want a control class go and race a stock honda or Max thats what those class's are for.
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Exactly, close racing, known expenditure.
But I'm not the one that started this, and you can bet anything you want, there will be no new class added to superkarting at Australian Championship level with CAMS.
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I personally would hate to see the dumbing down or restrictions imposed on what is the premier open class, 250 international. I would not support this in anyway. What I'm suggesting is that this class remain open to Inlines and V-Twins exactly as it is now. If you genuinely believe that yo have a shot in a V twin by all means enter for a chance to win the main game. That said I don't agree that a V-Twin regardless of its budget and development can compare with the current development of late model Inlines, to be fair to Sam's statement about warren, I believe that talent has certainly served him well but it has become a case of hang in and hope the Inlines have bad luck. I also believe that in a current inline warren would have won by much much more. Surely you have driven a factory Inline Sam? do you honestly think that any manner of redesign will see V twins make 108 hp? The world isn't heading down the inline path for no reason. I believe both yourself and warren will have to make the change to Inline at sum point when talent can no longer bridge the ever increasing gap in performance. But all that aside, the international class would remain unchanged so like i say if you genuinely believe you have a shot you could still enter as normal. What i would like to see is some way to help assure that people like Brian Stockman and others still retain an avenue to market and develop there product. a product that still accounts for a major percentage of the twin cylinder field. With regards to numbers in classes I too am unsure all clubs could field enough pure Inlines to cope if all V twins switched classes. But there numbers are growing and If your club only had a couple of Inlines entered in 250 international then I'm sure the bigger budget top quality V twins would still take there chance in the international class. My concern is the declining numbers of V twin entries at club level, no doubt all clubs have noticed this. These karts (v twins) are still a great lower budget and dare I say more reliable way for people to get a feel for a twin cylinder and enjoy the fantastic performance they do have. Lets face it, Those of us whom are more seriously competitive will find a way to attain current top end, top class, no performance compromised karts in the search for the top spot. (thats what brings us to superkarts after all, otherwise there are plenty of slower cheaper classes of karting)
At the end of the day I would Just like to see some way to entice back those guys (and there's alot of them) who have V twins sitting around not being used, come back and race. The Idea of there own more realistic class in witch they can race kart/guys of more similar performance/budget.
Lastly and I'm sure i'll have more to say on the topic with more feedback form you guys out there. This type of class is the life of the second hand kart/parts market, something I believe we desperately need to encourage.
P.S. This is just my thoughts on Superkarting as I see it. Maybe its not the big issue I feel it is and maybe there are better solutions to the issues so please by all means correct me where I'm wrong and disagree if like. That's the beauty of a forum.
Cheers
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That's we're the 250 National class is a great option and a good steerer/setup can circulate at a decent pace as you know..
Have you considered trying a National mate ?
Re: Moving Forward
At the end of the day both engines have a 250cc capacity and the inline arguably is packaged better in a Superkart, but both engines are the same capacity and there's no magic design that makes inlines generate a whole bunch more power than v-twins...
There are just as many v-twins with over 90hp at the rear wheel as there are inlines.
Re: Moving Forward
Sam's TZ yamaha/Stockman has been for sale for a long time and it won the 2009 AU and broke the Laguna lap record.
Also 108 hp is a load of crap. absolutely no way. Not that peak Hp matters a toss anyway. Torque people and loads of it for as many 1000's of rpm as possible. That's all that matters.
As for top inlines vs top V twins, I think we know the answer to that. We ran our early 2010 combo at R1 after we lost our New Evo 3 combo in Q1 from that faulty Radiator cap. So detunned from Q2 onwards. Russell had some bad luck too mind you we had similar luck in the final last year.
Re: Moving Forward
The rate at which tyres were being replaced at pi last weekend was not in line with what i think superkarting is all about. It doesnt take a lot of skill to destroy a set of tyres in 6 laps - but it does take skill to make them last for 2 or 3 heats.
Limiting tyre usage would also slow down the massive amounts of money being spent on high hp engines.
F1 have adopted tyre control to make strategy more important and save teams money as well.
If we are going to make our open class all about who has the most money we may as well meet at the pub, bring our cheque books and sort it out over a few beers...
Re: Moving Forward
A lot of what i'm hearing from you guys is valid.
I realise the International class isn't for people on a budget, however to drop down in performance to say a national or serious 125 can actually be more expensive. (especially if you cant sell you V twin)
A national is also a 250 but we don't make it run against twins. simply because its understood that their designs have limitations. Obviously the 10 year old discontinued v twin designs have limitations of their own that could be considered. I Agree that the lower budget twins are often slower then the top nationals but that is more due to with the whole package. Your seeing current big dollar Nats with the driven by the top drivers of there class, vs cheaper old twins driven by the bottom of the international field and there in lies the result your seeing. Once again though i stress the front running Nat is the more expensive option. I'll try to remember my train of though. Oh yes.. with regards to mike, I think we know rust how many V twins make over 90 at the tyres possibly 2 I would guess but this is the figure that is just for an instant on the dyno and I could fairly safly say that all chance of reliability is out the window at this point. As far as 108hp is concerned I mean at the crank, and I believe this is fairly accurate for a well mapped/tuned 2012 DEA or FPE.
Sam however does make a good point that a standard no tuned Inline or older well setup Inline has no real advantage. I would just like to go back and say 90hp atw from a Honda twin is a real stretch and yet 92 hp atw from few year old FPE is comfortable. I guess you could say yes only really 4-5 difference between them but I personal believe its more like 88 hp atw on a good day in a Honda vs 96 hp atw for the current serious Inlines.
Please correct me on that same. I Honestly wouldn't know what the stockman crew can get out or an RS 250, I'm told in know uncertain terms that 100 at the crank for an RS is just not achievable. (an the nice usable power curve is out the window before that also) Again Sam would have a more accurate idea of this.
Again though I must stress that I have no wish to see twins drop away form the international class, and I am saddened to see there domination of the class in years gone by coming to an end, but surely we are already seeing this. Is it just me?
My main concern a Is what happens to all the RS and TZ twins out there? If they were to as some suggest drop back to the National class, firstly every one has to buy new karts. and secondly every one's chance of on selling their V twin goes out the window. This is an expansive solution for some.
Unfortunately my Instant midnight solution of creating a V twin class does have its flaws.(leaving the international class struggling for numbers etc.) Good to be discussing it with you guys though maybe some one will find a place for the twins that lay dormant all over the country. Off the top of my head I believe here in QLD we have lost 5 or 6 in the past 18months or so and I believe there are 3-4 for sale at most times now days under 10k.
Before I forget a very big thanks to all the Victorian racers and club members for an awesome nationals. Philip Island is absolutely as good as they say, maybe better :)
P.S. if anyone out there can get me this 90+ hp at the tyre's I would feel certainly be interested.
cheers guys
last words can anyone tell me what won the round a Philip Island? and what set the fastest lap time?
I think we all know. I'm sure you can guess it starts with IN and ends in Line
Re: Moving Forward
If anyone out there can get 90+ at the wheels from my RS250 I would genuinely be interested.
Thanks guys
Also good to hear from Scott, I appreciate your informed opinion :)
I got the 108 engine hp from a guy who got it from a guy that once spoke to someone somewhere. I don't think its that far of the mark though were the 2012 Anderson tuned DEA
Re: Moving Forward
I would like to see some forms of class control at least considered. Tyres would be a great place to start.
The rate at which tyres were being replaced at pi last weekend was not in line with what i think superkarting is all about. It doesnt take a lot of skill to destroy a set of tyres in 6 laps - but it does take skill to make them last for 2 or 3 heats.
Limiting tyre usage would also slow down the massive amounts of money being spent on high hp engines.
F1 have adopted tyre control to make strategy more important and save teams money as well.
If we are going to make our open class all about who has the most money we may as well meet at the pub, bring our cheque books and sort it out over a few beers...
[/quote]
Dean, we used 4 sets of tyres throughout the weekend as we had no used tyres to start with. all 4 sets are more than good enough for a club day which we will either sell them or use them inbetween now and R2. Limiting tyres will make no difference to the deficit you see from the few out in front. Its an open class which is virtually impossible to police restrictions. Perhaps dynos should be banned? We don't have one at home but many of you do. Tony, you, Paul Stebbings to name a few. You all have trailers too ;)
I am an advocate of spending money ( which I have virtually none of) only where it makes a difference. We don't even have a trailer as I spend the money I could throw into a trailer on engine and careful component selection.
3 years ago we went to NZ to race in their Nationals. They have a rule that restricts every competitor to 1 set of tyres from Quail till all racing is completed. We had a new track to learn, new driver, 2 stroke oil, fuel and atmosphere to learn in a day. We blisters 2 rh tyres in Quali and had to race the whole event on the 1 set and we lead every race. Luckily you drop your worst race as we blew up in the finish line in race 3.
I'm not having a go at you personally but its a spectacular class that is open. If you want restrictions go down 1 class.
Re: Moving Forward
There are only 2 other possible exceptions to this 90hp boundry, one is Jason Smith's DEA and the other is Carlo's DEA. Any other claims to even approaching 90 hp is a fact of a incorrectly calibrated dyno or the wrong type or just bull¥¢€t!
Re: Moving Forward
I'm not having a go at you personally but its a spectacular class that is open. If you want restrictions go down 1 class.
[/quote]
Hi Scott, "go down 1 class." I presume you mean Nationals.
What are your thoughts about the National 250 class ? Changes?
Most now are driving CR250's, some more highly tuned than others.
Josh, I'm not sure about Nationals being a more expensive option, than a V Twin.
Having owned both, a TZ250 4DP and now National karts,
Though I'm spending big dollars on the PFP Raider 250 Nat. to bring it up to a competitive level,
The only expense on both karts has been a top end rebuild, apart from maintenance.
We have two race meetings in 2 weeks, Morgan Parl 8/9/10th June, next weekend 17th June at Lakeside.
I am confidant both karts will compete all races at both meetings, (so long as I can survive the stress load)
The reliability and moderate cost of running a 250 National to me, is far cheaper than even a early V Twin.
I won't get involved in the purchase price and the running costs of new inline, out of my league.
Re: Moving Forward
I thought so Scott, I didn't think you could get 90hp out of a GP type V twin.
From what I'm lead to believe though Jason smiths F.P.E. just cracks the 90 also.
As for the idea of another class, it was just a thought. I need to find a use for my kart if I cant get it sold, don't really want to give it away but I don't really have room to leave it lying around my house.
cheers guys
Re: Moving Forward
For the record my Yamonda had 86hp peak on Stocky's dyno. My Viper-UK tuned BRC has 92hp peak on Ian's dyno.
Both engines tuned on AvGas ...
To compare these figures you would really need to dyno both karts back to back on the same dyno.
Both engine setups I've owned I'd say would be competitive to run in the top 5, the most important peice of running up the pointy end is driver and I feel I am the weakest link in my setup not my equipment.
For me if the twin becomes too hard on my pocket and I struggle with the up keep I'll just jump back into a 250 National.
I think you just need to work out what your budget is first, then select the right class were you can run a competitive outfit.
Re: Moving Forward
BTW, Scott, the Laguna Seca lap record is with a Stockman/RS250 Honda, not my TZ but Eddie Lawson with his TZ was not far behind it.
HP......all you got to look at is top speeds at Phillip Island.......
Re: Moving Forward
Anyone who thinks they can drive like Fangio but can't win because of HP, budget, open class rules, can't afford tyres, not enough pit crew, not enough knowledge or whatever other excuse that may restrict you from winning in an open class, I can suggest the perfect solution............get a STOCK HONDA........I love it! It will also teach you how to drive before you think that taking on the 'big boys' is all about HP.
BTW, Scott, the Laguna Seca lap record is with a Stockman/RS250 Honda, not my TZ but Eddie Lawson with his TZ was not far behind it.
HP......all you got to look at is top speeds at Phillip Island.......
[/quote
Yes they were very interesting ;)
F
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Also interesting there was one kart with an old v-twin way down middle pack pulling very close to the top guys top speeds.
:)
Re: Moving Forward
Sorry Sam. it was the Honda wasn't it. My mistake.
Sorry Koshie, no way is it around knocking on 90.
Yes dyno's are tuning tools and measuring sticks, They all read differently but the 3 I have had anything to do with are are all high quality and read to within 1 hp of each other with the same engine. You really need a load cell dyno though
.[quote author=Paul Dunlop link=topic=1742.msg18009#msg18009 date=1338684259]
[quote author=Sam Zavaglia link=topic=1742.msg18008#msg18008 date=1338682659]
Anyone who thinks they can drive like Fangio but can't win because of HP, budget, open class rules, can't afford tyres, not enough pit crew, not enough knowledge or whatever other excuse that may restrict you from winning in an open class, I can suggest the perfect solution............get a STOCK HONDA........I love it! It will also teach you how to drive before you think that taking on the 'big boys' is all about HP.
BTW, Scott, the Laguna Seca lap record is with a Stockman/RS250 Honda, not my TZ but Eddie Lawson with his TZ was not far behind it.
HP......all you got to look at is top speeds at Phillip Island.......
[/quote
Yes they were very interesting ;)
F
Yes pity you weren't down the end of the straight Paul and that you couldn't check in the final. As you say though not that top speed produces the best lap time or proves anything really.
[/quote]
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What would tell us much more is if i was measuring how fast different karts accelerate from a given speed to another!!
On a side note the GT cars were 30-50kmph faster down the shoot but as you know not quite as quick on the times in fact i got some of them going that much quicker straight out in front of were our pits were.. not down by the over bridge, just shows how much you can make up going around the corners quicker! brakes etc! :)
Re: Moving Forward
the most important peice of running up the pointy end is driver and I feel I am the weakest link in my setup not my equipment.
[/quote]
You have hit the nail on the head there Ant. The spacer between the steering wheel and seat is what makes everything work no matter what gear they are running.
I believe Sammy will back this one. Fitness is top of the list followed closely by ability.
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readings. Now some of the Hp figures I'm hearing, must be alot of happy Dyno's out there, And buy the way Scott
I dont own a dyno anymore (Had to pay for lawyers). But the new owner will be happy to take peoples money.
But I can garrantee No magic figures come from this Dyno. Now to Koshie's thoughts, there are too many variables out there, and the first thing I have to say is if a guy with a TZ & 20kgs over the weight limit can run at the pointy
end of the field, some people should forget about engines and look at two other key factors Chassis setup & Driving abilaty first, Oh yeh and only use two sets of tyres to top it off.
Re: Moving Forward
[quote author=ABR link=topic=1742.msg18007#msg18007 date=1338682554]
the most important peice of running up the pointy end is driver and I feel I am the weakest link in my setup not my equipment.
[/quote]
You have hit the nail on the head there Ant. The spacer between the steering wheel and seat is what makes everything work no matter what gear they are running.
I believe Sammy will back this one. Fitness is top of the list followed closely by ability.
[/quote]
Fitness is everything in a sport where 2/10's means everything.
I've gone from Smoking Wombat racing to Aids racing heading back to Wombat racing and know the power that fitness gives on the track and how it allows your mind to think quickly and accurately for kart adjustments, race craft and physical ability when in the seat.......no dollars can buy that.
Look at the fast front runners, which one's are Wombats? Does anyone know the fitness of Hossack, McIllveen, Jamieson..........I do.
That's why I laugh everytime someone says time to put the weights up.
As far as tyres, I always bring 5 sets to the track but have never used more than 2 sets in racing. Having unlimited sets can only help the guys behind, not the guys in front who have their shit sorted anyway, they will still win with 1 set only.
As I said, if you have a problem with preception on all the varibles, race in a controlled class to ease your mind.......125Max or Stock Honda.
Can't handle the heat with the big boys, get out of the kitchen.
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I agree you need the whole package not just hp figures, but if you dont have those figures you cant have the whole package, If power could be over come by ability you would have seem me sail past number 6. The truth is all the ability in the world wont get you there with out the whole package hp and all.
A good driver can only extract what the kart has to give him. Anyone who thinks they driving ability will change the physical/mechanical limitations of there kart is kidding themselves. who wins when everyone can drive? like in f1 for example, design/testing/setup every time. Its also worth remembering Russel Jamerson. got out of his stockman yamhonda and in to his new anderson DEA and within 10 laps had gain 3sec. a lap.(at morgan park) with no testing no setup adjustment just a better kart. While he was anchored down by his old kart no one ever mentioned him.
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If power could be over come by ability you would have seem me sail past safe evolutions number 6.
[/quote]
That certainly got their attention Josh
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[quote author=koshie link=topic=1742.msg18018#msg18018 date=1338708627]
If power could be over come by ability you would have seem me sail past safe evolutions number 6.
[/quote]
That certainly got their attention Josh
[/quote]
you mean MJR bricklaying no 6 with Safe Evolutions stickers on it which is a (2008) previous Anderson tune spec FPE to Jason smiths FPE ??? ;) :D ;D
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Sorry Scott,
I Absolutely do mean the No.6 MJR Bricklaying Anderson FPE. I Really do apologise for that. I honestly didn't mean to imply that, you or safe evolutions was attached to, or responsible for that particular kart. I only wanted to identify the kart, not even its owner and especially not you mate. I will be much more careful in the future.
Safe Evolutions is world class wealth of knowledge, if your ever after another driver .........
Re: Moving Forward
I do beg to differ on the tyre issue. I do believe it would bring the field closer together and make the racing more tacticle instead of about brute force. You see some very interesting F1 races due to the tyre factor.
We are allowed to disagree though - its no fun to agree on everything...
Re: Moving Forward
Its the digits at the end of the lap time that you should be looking at.
Josh you are spot on about the complete package mate but don't stress so much about the HP, there are bigger things to work on before that. I found 2 seconds a lap by tightning a bolt 1 8th of a turn on a chassis mate, the engine had no grunt at all but the sector times told me I should have been doing 1.34's in race three. Not bad for an engine with no grunt due to lack of tuning time. Now all I need to do is get fit again and be a better spacer between the wheel and seat ;)
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I agree Jase.
Trust me I'm looking at everything little thing that can help me. More grunt is just one of the more straight forward obvious things. Lets all be honest thought you need hp. why do you think a 250 inter is faster then a 125? the 125 is lighter, turns better, changes direction easier and much much slower, hmmm maybe hp does make a difference.
To those guys suggesting maybe we try to take grip away through regulating tyres, I could disagree more. We don't have the option of a pit stop like other classes or safety buffer of a full cockpit when some thing goes wrong like blowing a tyre. Also aren't we actually trying to go faster? I thought we were? cause with all the, "who cares about power and lets get shit tyres" talk I was getting confused lol.
Re: Moving Forward
Tyres are certainly one way to even the playing field a bit.
I Do think however the 250 international class should always be push the sport faster and faster.
Having a class that was a bit more even. I would support. (that was my point to begin with) But id hate
to see the international class get watered down.
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There is some truth there Ant & cookie but if your were to put Darren or Warren in Spiderwebbs PFP Raider a last years Nationals would there be a different 250 nat #1. Dont think so.....
[/quote]
[quote author=The Ex Cook link=topic=1742.msg18015#msg18015 date=1338701646]
Without upsetting Phil. A better set up and prep as well as a different driver would have seen it up at the pointy end.
[/quote]
NO offence taken. Any of these drivers would be welcome to drive my kart.
"The spacer" may have seen better days, but I have never stated I was out to win the Championship.
So if any driver could drive the PFP Raider as it was at P.I. much faster, or be a front runner, I doubt it.
For the record at P.I. last year my speed down the straight was around 15 klh slower than quick GP 125's.
(How much HP are these GP 125's developing? plus their lighter weight advantage)
Qualifying 1. I only did a few laps, down on power and it died.
Missed Q2. as the top end of the engine was still off.
So the only decent reliable run I had at P.I. was in race 1. where I was battling with PIL and other 125's,
I was flat out, pedal to the metal from MG corner all the way to the 2nd corner southern loop every lap.
I only had a couple of KLH speed advantage on PIL's stock honda (how much HP are they? and lighter weight)
I would slipstream, then pass PIL and others on the straight, only for them to turn into corners faster and repass me.
With 3 laps to go I held my place until the finish, was not repassed by PIL or others and just passed Phil Silcock before the chequed flag.
So as I said, if any driver, Warren or Darrel could drive the PFP Raider as it was at P.I. much faster, or be a front runner, I doubt it.
I didn't have anywhere near the speed or HP of the Viper Nationals. Needed more HP.
Mick Ward went to P.I. this year for the experience, he is like me, enjoys the driving, not out to win Championships.
After race 1. I was really looking forward to the next races at P.I. last year.
Race 2. I kept to the right from the start to allow the quick 125's through as they were fighting for a Championship.
If I held a normal line in turn 2 instead of leaving room for faster karts, maybe I would have avoided being involved in that carnage? but there were karts inside me on my left trying to pass.
Also for the record my PFP Raider 2000/2001 engine has been developed, more HP since P.I. with some Viper parts,
and a new modified 2006 CR250 engine should be here soon to give the PFP Raider even more power.
Back to the HP issue, my view is if 250 V twins are so down on power, in my view they have little chance of winning, no matter who is driving them. A "package" still needs enough power on the straights or will be passed.
But another "class" doesn't seem right, or tyre restrictions. So I'll leave it to you guys to figure it out.
Re: Moving Forward
You are trying to compare the effects of 8" wide tyres with 215kgs on top vs a 10" tyre with 2000kgs on top.
The smarter guys will decode the tyre setup so that 1 set works great, the guys who have no idea on setup will suffer. This does not equal closer racing, just stupid racing.
Why don't you mark Warren's tyres for shit stir sake and see what you find out. ;)
In any case, let's just assume you restrict the twins to 2 sets of racing rubber, what difference will that make to the outcome?
The twin class is an open class racing, there are other classes out there that are restricted.
Re: Moving Forward
Along way short of the rumored 35k 2012 Anderson /DEAs that have come to our shores!!
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I've heard from reliable sources that they were 40-45K when it arrives to the front door, I don't have a problem with that.
I would also guess that the kart that Darren drove, with all of Scott's own doing would still be of simular cost to see it on the grid in May. Again, I don't have a problem with that.
So long as everyone respects the rules we are playing to, you all know what your getting yourself into BEFORE you started.
What about in 125GB, I built a kart that [u]cost[/u] me, with all my own work and Brian loooking after me $18,000. That kart won every race I entered, it won the Pacific Superkart Challege outright on it's maiden run, I sold it to Tamasi and he won 2x Australian Championships with it out of 2 attempts. Nothing is stopping someone with the know how and within the "open" rules of 125GB to do the same. Now how many 125GB guys exhaust their 2 sets of marked tyres at the Nationals? Did I hear none?
If you don't like those rules that have stood for a VERY LONG time, drive in a class that suits.........did I not say Stock Honda a few times already. There is a class that requires no big $$$ and no technical know how, in fact everything I've learnt I've shared with every owner. ;) ;D
Re: Moving Forward
Why do most other classes of bitumen racing restrict tyres then ? As you stated before Sam, you could do an entire round on just one set - so why dont you ?
If I told Darren Hossack to drive in such a way as to make one set of tyres last all weekend - do you think he would be as quick ?
Anyway - it is just a point for discussion - keep your hair on Sam :-*
Re: Moving Forward
when was the last TZ250s and RS250s manufactured? ive tried to find out but can't get an exact answer.
i still think they are competitive in the right hands :)
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Owen,
Honda RS250 and Yamaha TZ250 last produced complete bikes in 2008, very few bikes but still did.
I think the last Honda RS125 complete bike was built in 2010.
Factory Approved Development available to consumer for TZ125/TZ250 stopped in 2004, factory development to consumer for Honda RS125/RS250 stopped in 2006.
Select private support/development to MotoGP riders were still made right up to the end. I know HRC gave technical support to Japanese Hiroshi Aoyama in the RSW250 for the 2009 250cc World Championship win.
Re: Moving Forward
All good points Sam.
Why do most other classes of bitumen racing restrict tyres then ? As you stated before Sam, you could do an entire round on just one set - so why dont you ?
If I told Darren Hossack to drive in such a way as to make one set of tyres last all weekend - do you think he would be as quick ?
Anyway - it is just a point of discussion - keep your hair on Sam ;)
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Darren was struggling with understeer on the new kart. Once that chassis was sorted it wouldn't make a difference.
The more weight you put over our 8" tyres, the greater min corner speed you will obtain. We slide due to lack of weight over the tyre's grip capability. ;)
Another conundrum, sometimes more grip = slower lap times.
You need to find what gives best lap times for yourself.
Re: Moving Forward
Re: Moving Forward
Thanks Sam, now can someone please fix our understeer :D.. :D. It's killin us!!!!
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Easy fixed if you shut up and listen [size=14pt]TO ME[/size]!
Re: Moving Forward
Re: Moving Forward
Watch him Shorty - I had him in my shed for 5 minutes at the PI nationals and he started talking about hourly rates !!! :D
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Got the job done where all other experts failed.
Lucky I didn't add "think time" to it.