With the interest that has been shown from those in South Australia and Victoria, the SWG has decided to allow all the clubs (yes all 4) to trial rolling starts at [b]CLUB[/b] and [b]STATE[/b] level events in 2008. Apparently it is with the view of whether to allow for these at "NATIONAL" level in 2009.
What is your view on this topic?
Don't be shy.
Craig
Comments36
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
There are plus and minus in this topic.
[u]Firstly, for a 125Max, I say go for rolling start.[/u]
It makes for a better spectitcal and could stop the cheating in clutches (not sure if this happens....just commenting)
[u]For Gearbox classes, do standing starts.[/u]
I've done many rolling starts in USA plus the ones we did at Phillip Island on 16th Feb 2008.
I found that when we were following the pace car on the out lap at PI at pace car speed, our tyres were not as warm and ready to go as would be on our own warm up lap. However, David Bellinger did have the Pace Car speed increased in later races and it did help.
Now imagine Mallala on a National Title, wet day, rolling start, big field, the fast approach speeds all bunched up into turn 1 when only 1 person forgets their brain......a massive and dangerous pile up in that tight corner.....let's not forget, ruins people's championship hopes....... let's not go down the same path as sprint kart racing.....
For the guys who have the front row or better positions, they have a HUGE advantage over those further back due to the reaction effect from the person in front of you before they cross the control line. By the way, in the USA, as soon as you see the green flag you can race and pass, even if it is before the control line.....unlike we did at Phillip Island.
[u]I would prefer a standing start for GB classes to add fairness[/u], now the position where I normally start from would give me an advantage for a rolling start. Is that what you want all the fast guys in your class to have....an even greater advantage?
I'll do what I'm told to do by the race organisers, as long as my saftey is considered in Turn 1 on Lap 1.
Another thing to think about.....in the event someone is hurt because of this, saftey enquiry done, the question would surely be asked..........standing starts for since day 1, no problems.........change to rolling starts and we have someone hurt.... I imagine some sort of accountability will need to be answered.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Everyone is bunched up right under each other's rear crash bar (there is no other fair method or measure distance for drivers)......then doing 80kph before the green.....then the green is shown and bang everyone is going for it left to right and right to left [u]at high speed [/u] and you can throw a blanket over the field. You can't tell me that is safer than a standing start, especially when your talkin 220kgs, fast acceration and big fields.....plus with us mixed gearbox classes.
If you run the control line rule, the front has bolted before the back has even smelt their smoke.
NGB classes are lighter, more nimble and less likely for a major accident. I would recommend rolling start, no control line rule, passing allowed as soon as they see the green.
Just my opionon based on about 15x rolling starts 13x twin and 2x 125GB.....2 of them in the wet.
Don't shoot me if you don't agree.....just [u]my[/u] opinion.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Why the concern about a secong roll around lap if it is cold or wet. 1 roll around is all you get at anytime for a standing start so why not for a rolling start. Is the lap distance shorter on the roll around when doing a rolling start? It is only the first corner that you hit into at a higher speed on the opening lap and if you have a concern you just warm your tyres better down the back straight.
Craig
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
The decisions are made by the relevant levels within the structure. At state and club level it is done by the clubs and at national level it is done by the SWG.
As for the rest and the reasons behind it, what ever! If someone is "doping" their clutch for standing starts they will most likely continue to do it with rolling starts and still get the advantage.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As for the rest and the reasons behind it, what ever! If someone is "doping" their clutch for standing starts they will most likely continue to do it with rolling starts and still get the advantage.
[/quote]
I would think that by the time they had done a complete lap any clutch treatment would be nullified or near enough to it.
Chris
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
My concern for saftey is for the GEARBOX RACE and comes from the weight and momenteum of a 250twin. They accelerate very quickly from 80kph upwards. If you got hit by a twin as your slowing for a corner by one that is yet to think about turning, then you would defineitly know about it.
Then there is the incident that Anton had with me last year. That has nothing to do with rear crash bars, that was a front wheel hitting my back wheel SIDE by SIDE. So having a closed up field [u]at 80kph[/u] using a rolling start method is just promoting this type of incident.
I wouldn't have any [u]major[/u] safety concerns in a rolling start if I raced 125Max, cold, warm or wet tyres.
Again, just my opinion. Everyone one is entitled to their own opinion.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As for the NGB field it is presenting a different problem in that with a standing start there was not a real lot of biff and barge on the opening lap in the braking zones as there were usually groups of up to 5 karts fighting for the realestate but with the rolling start down here there is now a bunch of up to 30 karts fighting it out so there are a few incidents on the opening lap.
As a spectacle the rolling start is great for spectators with the whole field getting away faster but it was always good watching the gearbox karts from a standing start even though it was nerve racking with the big field at the nationals down here last year with stalled karts on the front part of the grid.
Cookie
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
I think the main reason behind the push was too eliminate the rumours of clutch doping in the NGB class...and the GB guys just sorta went "might aswell give it a go too". Like OFR#65 said, at the last Mallala meet the GB drivers decided to go for standing starts...my clutch didnt wanna talk to me for a few days after the meeting too :D :D
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
The whole thing started in Victoria last year and it was a 250 Inter driver that suggested it. His theory was that in the all in races at Phillip Island that the gearbox karts come up to lap the NGB classes on lap 5 for the GB classes at around the exit of Cyberia and it creates a problem for both classes as the NGB are in a duel for position and the GB are dicing for the lead and heading up the back with both lots having a go created problems for both and it was only going to take one small misunderstanding for a pretty big bingle. With the rolling start the theory was that the front NGB would be over the start finish line and onto lap 5 before the lead GB karts got to the chequered flag and alleviate the biggest problem. For the main part that has worked when the races are 5 laps. After the sucess at Phillip Island the SWG had a serious look at the outcomes and reasoning and have progressed it to be trialed by all clubs.
Cookie
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
I think its a hard issue, both have their positives and negatives...but then again how many years have standing starts worked perfectly fine??....
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
At the end of the day, things where tried and the relivant people now have the facts and data instead of the assumptions which can only be a good thing to trial these things.
I personally prefer standing start for GB classes for a few good reasons, [u]none of which are for self intrest[/u].
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As I've said before, it's too dangerous and unnessesary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz-ry36F5KQ
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
If a good driver is somehow held up by slower drivers during qualifying (geee this never happens) and is 2 or 3 rows back, the poll sitter beyond any doubt has a massive advantage over the rest of the field in a rolling start.
During standing start if you get away like lightening, you can pass who ever you want as soon as you can, no waiting till over the control line stuck behind a slower driver/kart.
It might be a good idea for the max dudes but why not just do it for them?
Regards
Scott
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Your quote "One small issue I do have though, is the stupid, stupid rule that prevents you from nailing the throttle until you've crossed the start/finish straight. I think it would be better if everyone was allowed to nail the throttle when the flag drops, but have no overtaking until the control line." actually sums up the rule. When the flag drops the competition has started but there will be no overtaking until the control line. Anyone that does not accelerate with the kart in front of them are liable to be passed as they obviously have a problem and can be passed.
Craig
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As for the rolling start, where do you draw a line in the rules proposed (that nowhere in the world has tried) between;
(i) 5 kart lengths spacing between rows
(ii) driver's decesion to [u]differenciate between[/u] passing a; * problem kart, * a shitbox, * shitdriver, * slow kart, whatever it may be before the control line. This will add hesitation in split moments in drivers which can cause unnessasary and dangerous type accidents.
(iii) additional policeing and controvsey over all of the above.
There is a reason why in Europe and USA they RACE and PASS as soon as the Green is shown plus grid nose to tail for rolling starts, that is because it FAIREST and EASIEST way.
Again, I normally grid towards the front so the new rules help me and disavantage others, I'd rather it be fair for ALL and keep the standing starts......that's my view and [u]NOT[/u] IN MY SELF INTREST.
;) Ohh, what would happen if the CIK introduced standing starts soon........would we follow them back like we are doing with other rules ???
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Are we trialling proposed rolling start rules? OR
Are the rules in the CAMS manual yet?
If rolling starts are to be used why aren't the rules of sprint adopted as they are proven to work?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Our proposed rules are a merger between the CAMS and AKA rules.
Rgds - Gavin
[/quote]
Gavin, so what are the differences? After it is all said and done the AKA rules work remarkably well. The only real issue I can see is if the 125GB & NGB get mixed up in qualifying the quicker karts further down the field get penalised, but hey, that's racing and is no different to a standing start except now we have Maxes actually holding up procedure until the quicker karts get around them. It must drive the few 80 drivers nuts to be gridded behind a Max. Why don't we just declare the Max's off the back of any grid and be done with it, after all they are only competing within class, works for me. I cannot see any good reason to grid a Max in front of any gearbox kart at all, comments please as I duck for cover.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Gavin - just interested. Is there any particular reason rolling starts have popped up as a topic in webmasters? I can understand its use in Sprintkarts - they have no form of clutch so they HAVE to have a rolling start (or, pushers on the line, which = mayhem). I'm not really sure why we are considering rolling starts in webmasters... (say, that rhymes... :) )
[/quote]
You obviously have not seen a Max leave the line, you could have breakfast before they get to racing speed. It has become a real problem and does need addressing, how is yet to be seen.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
That in the event of Rotax Max karts being on the grid they be gridded behind all gearbox karts without exception
Seems fair to me but it does not get over the manipulation of clutches with any means possible within the Max class, that is a seperate issue and needs dealing with. It has not arisen in sprint due to the rolling starts and is not within the intent of rules. I have had people tell me that it isn't illegal so why hassle about it. Well if that is the case, issue everyone with an approved clutch slipping lubricant and admit it happens, actually write it in the rules. If not, outright ban it and penalise anyone doing it, you can't have it both ways. I have to get a life, i'm going out to the workshop and doing some woodwork, stuff karts.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Chris - I used to run a 100NGB, running the standard Yammie clutch, which was a bit of a pig of a thing at times. The flag would drop and I'd often go backwards through the pack. I could probably have alleviated the problem somewhat by forking out for an arguably better Horstman clutch. But, being the tight-arse that I am, I stuck with the Yam clutch and took the good with the bad. After all, the 100NGB was designed to be a 'bridging class' to cater for Sprint guys coming across to webmasters with little modification to the existing 100cc Clubman control class - bolt on a nose cone, side-pods, and a clutch - because webmasters so standing starts. Basically, if you wanted to run in a centrifugal clutch class, you put up with bogging down at the start.
[/quote]
A Yamaha sprints off the line compared to a Rotax, so that gives you some idea of how slow they are.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Note I'm keeping a bit of a saftey gap on the 3rd row......mate we are going at 80kph ready for thunder, ducking and diving!!!!!
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/photogallery/Laguna%202004/Laguna2004.jpg[/img]
Then as you come onto the start/finish, it's nosecone's bashing into rear bars at 50mph (80kph) .....no joke!!!!!!
This picture from Laguna 2005. Can't tell me rolling starts is safer than standing starts for Gearbox classes.....
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/photogallery/Laguna%202005/2Laguna05%20Start.jpg[/img]
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
If CAMS decide to make it so no amount of debating will change it.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Sam, are you saying it is safe for some karts and not others to do rolling starts, if so why the difference between 250's and other karts? If it is so unsafe how many accidents have the Yanks had?
[/quote]
Chris,
Gearbox karts accelerate much quicker, hence also get to dangerous speeds much quicker. Going quick means less time to react and limited movements in avoiding another kart, accident or potential accident. Gearbox karts weigh much more so impact is also greater.
eg.
250 Twin 0-100 = 2.9secs@ 215kgs.
Data from last Friday test, exit of T9 at Eastern Creek(flat piece of track) 100-160kph = 4.0secs
Non-Gearbox karts will have more time for driver reactions, less speed, more movereable and less weight/mass in event of an impact.
I've raced both for over 5 years, I'd feel comfortable(safe) amongst a large group midfield in a rolling start if I was in a 125Max.
Yes I know of 3 accidents in the last 3 years where people have been taken out at T1 in the USA......excess speed, cold tyres, brain fade, whatever....it has happened, even caused personal clashes of driver's attitude, abilities, whatever....they whinge over everything........
Anyway, sounds like Cookie has the mail where it's really not going to matter anymore.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Cookie
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Sad to say that after an incident at an historics meeting earlier this year that CAMS are having a serious look at all catagories that run under their banner going to rolling starts. The incident blocked the track with close to 40 cars in a tangled heap after one car close the the front of the grid had an issue getting off the line.
If CAMS decide to make it so no amount of debating will change it.
[/quote]
That sounds familiar, remember when they had the really BIG biff off the line at Bathurst from a standing start? Actually there have been two monsters there, one involving Black Jack and the other involving Walkinshaw IIRC. They didn't ban standing starts from them.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Hey Sammy. How can you say that there is less weight in the Max class. How would you like me heading toward you flat out? [/quote]
Yerr but with how many hotdogs in your basket? :D
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
Hey Sammy. How can you say that there is less weight in the Max class. How would you like me heading toward you flat out? My kart goes from 90 to 215 in a fraction of a second.
Cookie
[/quote]
Oh dear, what a frightening thought. :D
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As for the V8's, they are a rule unto themselves. I am lead to believe they race under their own rules based on the FIA rules similar to what the F1's do. That is why there is no mention of V8 supercars in the CAMS manual.
As for the plebs that are the rest of the motor racing fraternity, we got to put up with what we are given unless you get all hot underthe collar and put up a submission to the rule makers.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
As for the V8's, they are a rule unto themselves. I am lead to believe they race under their own rules based on the FIA rules similar to what the F1's do. That is why there is no mention of V8 supercars in the CAMS manual.
As for the plebs that are the rest of the motor racing fraternity, we got to put up with what we are given unless you get all hot underthe collar and put up a submission to the rule makers.
[/quote]
This was in the time of Group A, TC had nuthin to do with it, they were the days. Decent racing with all sorts of cars on the track.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
remember when they had the really BIG biff off the line at Bathurst from a standing start? Actually there have been two monsters there, one involving Black Jack and the other involving Walkinshaw IIRC. They didn't ban standing starts from them.
[/quote]
Black Jack Start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLJJFb-OBUc
Fair and square up the arse of a 3 time world champion. Bloody M21 gearboxes with the worn rubber bushing in the selector arms.
Re: Are rolling starts the way to go?
So where is the 5 kart lengths between rows like there is supposed to be for the webmasters?
See the inconsistancy, nothing [u]safe[/u] or [u]fair[/u] about that.
Now add an extra 25 karts for a National title field, use this method on a small track like Mallala, capture a great moment on film come turn 1.
[img]http://www.giova.clintond.com/images/news/20080605/news_20080605_01.jpg[/img]