I believe its time for a new class in superkarting, the 250 GP class.
I would like to share my thoughts on the current situation regarding the 250 international class.
It seems to me that quite alot of competitors are being overlooked and inevitably leaving the sport as GP style V-twins (Honda RS250/Yamaha TZ) have become overshadowed by inline type engines. This intern has caused demand for and value of these type of karts to drop off. We, as a group can prevent this from happening and save valued karts, competitors and club members. Firstly, the only thing that now makes these karts less desirable/valuable is the Class they currently compete under. If we were to introduce a new class for the people who still have and are still wanting to race these karts, club numbers would increase, event entries would increase and the second hand resale value would increase. It stands to reason the more competitive a kart is the more people want it and the more its worth. If there's no chance of a kart wining no one wants it and its not worth anything. GP motorcycle single crank V configured twin-cylinder engine (eg.Honda rs250) are currently classed the same as Kart specific 2 crank inline engines (not really anything like each other). the honda can't compete and so is worth nothing. Other engine types (250cc single cylinders or 125cc) also have no chance of competing against the kart specific 250cc Inlines and would be worth less then nothing if forced to compete in the same class, so obviously they are put in their own class, they are competitive amongst themselves and hence they are worth something. I believe it's now also obvious that GP v-twins should also have there own class. Sadly its has already reached the point where now 125cc karts are often worth more then the GP engine V-twins, and in a sport were part of the appeal is low cost (relative to most motorsport) this massive devaluation of peoples Karts is making it harder for people to upgrade to the (currently needed to compete) newer karts and so the problem is compounded. Its about time we faced the fact Inlines are the premier class and the GP based v-twins should be given a class of there own. This would bring lost members back as well as large numbers of currently garage stricken (still fast) GP based V-twins. It wouldn't be long befor people remembered just how good they are, and befor you know it their worth something again. New and existing members who already own and are quite happy with there GP engine karts, shouldn't be able to race in organised events without feeling like there wasting there time/money. It is essential to regain the large numbers of GP style 250 V-twin engined superkarts that are still here in Australia, aswell as the support businesses that have developed along side these types engines (Including business's like Stockman Superkarts.) As active members I feel compelled to ensure our sport and its class/regulations reflect the interests/intentions of its members. Just think for a second, how many stockman honda's used to be in your club and now go waisted in some back shed somewhere? lets bring em back.
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Best Idea you have had all week !! ;D
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And that will change the deficit how? :D
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Then Hossack stuffed it up ! If he was heavier it would have been 600m or so... :P
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I can eat as much ice-cream as I want.
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I'm with you Brett. More ice cream.
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Tonight I will be replying to all things that were relating to me or us from page 3 on. Even on a class that both I have a low option on and I have nothing to do with.
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pitted with Sam many times Dean,....why do you think we couldn't([size=5pt]wouldn't[/size]) find the key to the deviders this year!! :D :D :D :D
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No problems Shorty, my garage was so peaceful without all the knuckleheads busting my chops.
Let's keep it that way.
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More than happy to take some pics and send them to you - I will do it today. ;)
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So you do want some photo's Scott ? I had a feeling that you were going to wait for me to make you one - in which case I would advise you to organise a long term postal rate to the UK.
More than happy to take some pics and send them to you - I will do it today. ;)
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Mate, DHL for engine package return once every 2 years is suprisingly little.
I just want something repeatable to build up our engine packages on comparing to our EVO 3 and use to run in.
I was hoping you would sell me the first one and you could build the new "improved" 2nd one for yourself. I will throw in next seasons tyres!!!! :D ;)
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Anyway, pictures are 1000 words so I will get them to you shortly...
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No we were talking about banning ewe for offering over priced advice !!!
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What price do you put on helping a South Australian that NO ONE else had the answer, not even AIM MyChron?
What price do you put on helping a South Australian during the Australian Championship timetable?
What price do you put on helping a South Australian.......period.
You been stuffing around like an old fat useless lard till I graciously gave you my time, expertise and used over 27MB of my internet access to provide the working solution, this is how you thank me.
Mike Davis is in the clear......but no worries mate, I'll pencil this into my little black book for next time. ;)
4 hours labour, 2 hours think time, 2 hours South Australian penelty tax, 1/2 hour typing time. ;D
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Truth be known I am a Victorian - still am actually - Horsham - ite.
I tell you what - next time I go to wizz past you with my little ole out dated, uncompetitive, cheap, reliable and BLOODY fast 4DP, I will back off a little so the speed difference doesnt look so great. :D
... I will do the same for you too Scott... ;)
Surely that makes us even...
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That's what happens when we get 1 hour between races, how's one suppose to check engines.
4 corner, cold seize/too tight/not run in....take your pick.
[img]http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s320x320/521353_3979500575696_1422265573_n.jpg[/img]
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I told you should have kept the TZ. 1 hour no problems, check the reeds, put in fuel, chain lube, coffee and then pump up the tyres.
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The Yamaha piston's are the problem. ;D
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I thought ewes were talking about banning dyno's and even kart trailers. :D
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HA ha. ;D
-Yes you must only borrow a trailer and have a great group of mates that come and collect your gear and drop it home for you,
-No new or near new equipment that is assembled throught the night prior to the Friday practice,
-No crew cheif is to go without sleep for 87 hours before the end of Friday practice,
-Driver must have sat in the kart for the first time prior to going out in the kart for the first time in Friday's practice,
-No driver is to go without driving a kart for more than 6 months and be fastest in almost all the sessions by seconds not tenths.
-No engines are to be started for the first time in Australia as they go out for first practice, They should have been raced/run for 3 meetings prior to sort /iron any bugs out,
-2 sets of tyres per National title meeting from Quali on,
-weights to 235 maw,
-no dyno's, they must be sold for next to nothing and new owner must be a non club member (me)!!,
-Oh yes and to enter a Nationals you must do 7 club rounds per year even if it means you have to destroy your equipment at such great tracks that suit 250 Inters like Winton on the short circuit, Calder, and Morgan Park.
-no magneisium rims, They are too expensive.
-Oh yes and how about a weighbridge that has asphalt to and from it.
Other than that I'm all happy ;) :D ??? ::) :'(
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Hmmm Sam 4DP or 5KE pistons??????
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4DP pistons, how else would I make it 270cc without using the 4DP 56mm diameter pistons on the RS250 crank. ;)
stroke(cm) x pi x radius^2(cm) = displacement in cc
5.45 x 3.14159 x 2.8^2 = 134.23cc
134.23cc x 2 cylinders = 268.46cc
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I only take my barrels off at the start of a season to check for spiders ... I dont understand what you are doing there Sam. ???
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I only take my barrels off at the start of a season to check for spiders
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That's funny, gonna steal that as part of the Stock Honda maintence guide. ;D
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sometime's its good listen to the right people and to take time to think about their advise. who would have thought.
Not everyone knows what their talking about but most don't mind talking just the same. Sam was right in saying its not so much about inline vs V twin. And he is proof that a V twin can work. I do still think that top end inlines have an edge in power but its not as cut and dry as I was making out. A nice V twin has alot of positives especially if you are racing to a tight budget. Again like sam mentioned Dollars and development is the main reason one competitor out performs another. So regardless of inline or V tiwn I need to be realistic about how far I can go chasing power. Without a top budget, the V twin is just as good an possibly easier to live with. Thats not to say I wont end up buying a Inline, I'm just agreeing that there's alot more going on behind the scene's to ensure the best guys end up on top.
To mike, yes my kart is for sale, don't know if I will sell it though. Not sure what I would replace it with yet.
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A set of crank wheels with rods like this, special ignition, barrels, heads plus some of Stocky's magic and it will be as good as any.
Time and $$$........
[IMG]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/samzavaglia/crank4.jpg[/img]
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I loved the torque of my yamonda, the BRC feels much stronger on the pipe but it is alot more on/off than the GP bike engine.
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Sorry guys I wasn't going to step in but, I must correct some people, Scott I dont own a trailer, And Ive probably got the only Dyno that you dont put the whether conditions into it as it does it automaticely so there can be no funny Hp
readings. Now some of the Hp figures I'm hearing, must be alot of happy Dyno's out there, And buy the way Scott
I dont own a dyno anymore (Had to pay for lawyers). But the new owner will be happy to take peoples money.
But I can garrantee No magic figures come from this Dyno. Now to Koshie's thoughts, there are too many variables out there, and the first thing I have to say is if a guy with a TZ & 20kgs over the weight limit can run at the pointy
end of the field, some people should forget about engines and look at two other key factors Chassis setup & Driving abilaty first, Oh yeh and only use two sets of tyres to top it off.
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Sorry Tony an undersite on my part, yes you only have a truck not a trailer.
We don't have any funny HP readings as confirmed on 3 different Dynos but 100 and 108 hp? yes funny readings!!
Sorry to hear of the time your having, as you know many of us have either been there or are currently experiancing similar circumstances.
I absolutley disagree with the tyre quanity for twins.
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[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1742.msg18001#msg18001 date=1338667908]
I'm not having a go at you personally but its a spectacular class that is open. If you want restrictions go down 1 class.
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Hi Scott, "go down 1 class." I presume you mean Nationals.
What are your thoughts about the National 250 class ? Changes?
Most now are driving CR250's, some more highly tuned than others.
Josh, I'm not sure about Nationals being a more expensive option, than a V Twin.
Having owned both, a TZ250 4DP and now National karts,
Though I'm spending big dollars on the PFP Raider 250 Nat. to bring it up to a competitive level,
The only expense on both karts has been a top end rebuild, apart from maintenance.
We have two race meetings in 2 weeks, Morgan Parl 8/9/10th June, next weekend 17th June at Lakeside.
I am confidant both karts will compete all races at both meetings, (so long as I can survive the stress load)
The reliability and moderate cost of running a 250 National to me, is far cheaper than even a early V Twin.
I won't get involved in the purchase price and the running costs of new inline, out of my league.
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Hi Phil, yes I mean 250 Nat.
I disagree what you say with purchase price being out of your league, youve spent more on both of your 250 National karts than buying a used DEA Anderson from Russell!!
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I would like to see some forms of class control at least considered. Tyres would be a great place to start.
The rate at which tyres were being replaced at pi last weekend was not in line with what i think superkarting is all about. It doesnt take a lot of skill to destroy a set of tyres in 6 laps - but it does take skill to make them last for 2 or 3 heats.
Limiting tyre usage would also slow down the massive amounts of money being spent on high hp engines.
F1 have adopted tyre control to make strategy more important and save teams money as well.
If we are going to make our open class all about who has the most money we may as well meet at the pub, bring our cheque books and sort it out over a few beers...
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Tyres only limit corner speed which no mater what any of you say, even the lower powered twins can easily fry a tyre. Power can be applied in a straight line also and if an engine is quicker than another, the quicker one will get to the next corner sooner.
You know what, I would like to see tyre restictions added just so you can see that it will make almost no difference to your complant. (yours and others of coarse) ;)
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Scott i dont know how much faster you would be going after that over bridge as you come on so fast maybe a couple of mph?? maybe?
What would tell us much more is if i was measuring how fast different karts accelerate from a given speed to another!!
On a side note the GT cars were 30-50kmph faster down the shoot but as you know not quite as quick on the times in fact i got some of them going that much quicker straight out in front of were our pits were.. not down by the over bridge, just shows how much you can make up going around the corners quicker! brakes etc! :)
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Hi Paul, yes you are winding out in 6th due to changing into 6th just before the bridge. My gear spread sheet shows that 900 rpm is used from the change to turn 1 corner entry. (Quite a few MPH in a powerful engine ;) In a low HP engine it hits a wall due to drag in 6th.
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From my point of view watching the 'twins' I would rather have reliability more than hp. You can have all the hp/torque in the world, but if you can't finish four races it all means squat!! As for making separate classes it seems to me that the competitors who want to outspend others only race at the national events and don't run clubbies so it's a bit pointless. As for the national class, just put fuel in it and go racing, very low cost and only one set of Tyres needed per event. Also you don't need a Honda to win as witnessed at PI, although I do recommend a UK sourced Viper pipe that bolts on easily to either a Honda OR Yamaha to complete the package. I just put together a quick National for around 10k, while still getting some parts from Viper. Along way short of the rumored 35k 2012 Anderson /DEAs that have come to our shores!!
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As Russell J runs club meetings in QLD, I can only presume you are talking about us when you say “bit pointless”?.
Not that I have to justify what I do to anyone, but please consider the following,
-I make many of the engine components myself
-Our driver (like yours) has a somewhat less “high” profile in the publics eye but is still a high profile motor racer which can only be and is good for the sport of superkarting.
- He like your driver has many other commitments which often clash with running a kart. This year he is working 39 weekends all over the country, ad to this running the sports sedan series leaving him few weekends free to run our machine what ever it may be each time.
-I get a huge kick out of our situation. We have all the odds stacked up against us.
-We do no testing, virtually no running other than at the Nationals,
-The engine is only fired up at the event at the start of practice.
-We almost have a different kart for every event as I use the money to make money in-between our Nationals campaigns.
-In Vic the only track worth driving a twin at is Philip Island which we haven’t had driver availability for and it is dangerous and pointless running a fast twin with Max karts on the track at the same time.
From my point of view and while where on the reliability subject, do you think you should bring that subject up or that your class has the upper hand on the subject????
As for spending or outspending others as you put it, well I doubt we spend anything like what you think and if you weigh up success amongst rivals vs expenditure, I would say we are at or near the top of the list for low cost.
1 set of tyres per event? I’m picking that’s a 3 race clubbie.
Are you sure “around 10k” is accurate? Perhaps it is.
Your 10k is for a second hand kart and engine yes? How much is an Anderson DEA second hand?
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This year he is working 39 weekends all over the country, ad to this running the sports sedan series leaving him few weekends free to run our machine what ever it may be each time.
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I did mention something about Darren Hossack's fitness or even race fitness in a previous post?
Those that think this doesn't equate to much at this level are dreaming.
If anyone knows what he actually does for a full time job, might give you a bit of understanding why he is always competitve in our sport........and for me, that's good for the REST OF US to try and acheive!
Let's not criticize or cry louder on one's success, try harder, we all got the same set of rules ;)
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[quote author=Paul Dunlop link=topic=1742.msg18012#msg18012 date=1338688159]
Scott i dont know how much faster you would be going after that over bridge as you come on so fast maybe a couple of mph?? maybe?
What would tell us much more is if i was measuring how fast different karts accelerate from a given speed to another!!
On a side note the GT cars were 30-50kmph faster down the shoot but as you know not quite as quick on the times in fact i got some of them going that much quicker straight out in front of were our pits were.. not down by the over bridge, just shows how much you can make up going around the corners quicker! brakes etc! :)
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Hi Paul, yes you are winding out in 6th due to changing into 6th just before the bridge. My gear spread sheet shows that 900 rpm is used from the change to turn 1 corner entry. (Quite a few MPH in a powerful engine ;) In a low HP engine it hits a wall due to drag in 6th.
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Would of still loved to be down at turn one to see what my gun said, there was also quite a speed difference when karts are running by themseleves as against slipstreaming,quite a big one indeed ;)
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Your right Scott, i know nothing and your the guru.
Not sure why you say that but you said it!!If i wanted to throw tyres at my National i could probably throw i set on every heat, but why would i when i bought a set of your 8 lap throw aways that got Aker 40+ laps at Calder, me practice and four heats at Mallala, plus the limited practice/qualifying and first heat at Phillip Island I did.
First of all, I told you I would keep the tyre and wheel sets but we wouldn't use em for 6 months so id rather move them on. Throw away they were not.
Secondly, are there corners at Calder where the kart is on the ground ;)? Mallala is always great on tyre wear. No mention of Winton ?, 1 set plus there was it?
I was basing my build price on a second hand kart and engine that is obviously a piece of crap and not capable of winning races.
What's that all about??
Also it may have been over 10K once i bought the spare rims and trick seat brackets from uou!! ;)
Great, nice one :) .
The reliabity problems we had were due to low lead fuel and driver error, not a factor since.
Interesting on the low lead as you say. We have only ever run low lead avgas and again did at the nationals this time around.
My remarks on the twin class were based purely on observation.
They did have a strong club showing in Vic a few years back but I know other states have reasonable numbers fronting to clubbies.
Everyone seems to be talking horsepower when the mix of driver/setup/conditions/tyres and torque all need to be considered. Im tipping the kart with the most hp at the island may not have one a single race?!?!
Yes perhaps not? ;)maybe your right there. As my old Nascar engine builder says, HP sells engines, Torque wins races!!
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Scott to back up Scott, the rolling Maverick Chassis was just over $4,000.00, the engine $500.00 landed in Australia. Yes it is a 2001 YZ250 but that is the model we wanted, cylinder ported by Powerflow and the carby bored by him also. New balanced crank and rod $200.00 delivered to the door, new crank bearings $10.00 each ebay, complete gasket and seal kit $80.00 ebay. Bodywork and exhaust pipe and muffler x 2 from Ian. And I nearly forgot Vertex piston kit $100.00 so I purchased eight and a complete Yamaha gearbox so we could get the ratios we wanted $150.00. The modifications done to the rest of the engine done by us. As you can see it still adds up to a very cheap package, and one that we can afford to run. The other Stockman that we have built probably ended up being cheaper than the Anderson, both run on standard ignition.
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Well done, you guys would have the best vs cheapest 250 Nats in the field I guess. It helps by being resourceful and have all those years experiance. And god bless the internet!
I built a Billet cased Anderson Mirage with PVP top end once. It is still the only 250 I have ever made a profit on.
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[quote author=Nat22 link=topic=1742.msg18109#msg18109 date=1338993113]
Scott to back up Scott, the rolling Maverick Chassis was just over $4,000.00, the engine $500.00 landed in Australia. Yes it is a 2001 YZ250 but that is the model we wanted, cylinder ported by Powerflow and the carby bored by him also. New balanced crank and rod $200.00 delivered to the door, new crank bearings $10.00 each ebay, complete gasket and seal kit $80.00 ebay. Bodywork and exhaust pipe and muffler x 2 from Ian. And I nearly forgot Vertex piston kit $100.00 so I purchased eight and a complete Yamaha gearbox so we could get the ratios we wanted $150.00. The modifications done to the rest of the engine done by us. As you can see it still adds up to a very cheap package, and one that we can afford to run. The other Stockman that we have built probably ended up being cheaper than the Anderson, both run on standard ignition.
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Well done, you guys would have the best vs cheapest 250 Nats in the field I guess. It helps by being resourceful and have all those years experiance. And god bless the internet!
I built a Billet cased Anderson Mirage with PVP top end once. It is still the only 250 I have ever made a profit on.
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Make money out of racing is a real hard thing, i usually recon if you can get quarter of what youve spent back its a real win!! ???
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[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1742.msg18117#msg18117 date=1339093157]
[quote author=Nat22 link=topic=1742.msg18109#msg18109 date=1338993113]
Scott to back up Scott, the rolling Maverick Chassis was just over $4,000.00, the engine $500.00 landed in Australia. Yes it is a 2001 YZ250 but that is the model we wanted, cylinder ported by Powerflow and the carby bored by him also. New balanced crank and rod $200.00 delivered to the door, new crank bearings $10.00 each ebay, complete gasket and seal kit $80.00 ebay. Bodywork and exhaust pipe and muffler x 2 from Ian. And I nearly forgot Vertex piston kit $100.00 so I purchased eight and a complete Yamaha gearbox so we could get the ratios we wanted $150.00. The modifications done to the rest of the engine done by us. As you can see it still adds up to a very cheap package, and one that we can afford to run. The other Stockman that we have built probably ended up being cheaper than the Anderson, both run on standard ignition.
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Well done, you guys would have the best vs cheapest 250 Nats in the field I guess. It helps by being resourceful and have all those years experiance. And god bless the internet!
I built a Billet cased Anderson Mirage with PVP top end once. It is still the only 250 I have ever made a profit on.
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Make money out of racing is a real hard thing, i usually recon if you can get quarter of what youve spent back its a real win!! ???
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That's more like it Paul!!
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Best Regards
Ian :)
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[quote author=Dean McGinty link=topic=1742.msg17997#msg17997 date=1338636696]
I would like to see some forms of class control at least considered. Tyres would be a great place to start.
The rate at which tyres were being replaced at pi last weekend was not in line with what i think superkarting is all about. It doesnt take a lot of skill to destroy a set of tyres in 6 laps - but it does take skill to make them last for 2 or 3 heats.
Limiting tyre usage would also slow down the massive amounts of money being spent on high hp engines.
F1 have adopted tyre control to make strategy more important and save teams money as well.
If we are going to make our open class all about who has the most money we may as well meet at the pub, bring our cheque books and sort it out over a few beers...
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Dean, we used 4 sets of tyres throughout the weekend as we had no used tyres to start with. all 4 sets are more than good enough for a club day.
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It appears that I was incorrect. Now that I can almost see an end to my house and workshop move, I was opening tyre bags from round 1 and discovered that we still have a brand new set of slicks unfitted. That makes it just 3 sets of slicks not 4 that we used and we went there with no used tyres to begin with. I just love surprises!!
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So 2 sets of slicks per round would be easy for a class outfit ( and driver) like yours then ?
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No Darren is not a smoother driver than I thought, I doubt that is possible ;).
Yep $800 per year cheaper for me if you change the rules to limit 2 sets.
I do think if a front running twin can last on 2 sets then all other classes should be limited to 1 set though.
While your at it,
-raise the MAW to 225kg so we have only a 1kg penalty then,
-all nationals events to be in NSW and VIC seeing they are the only BIG tracks
-make it so that if you want to run at the nationals you have to do a set amount of (club) rounds prior
-we all have to pit together with no walls in the garages
-Lemans style starts
-107% rule
-orange vests for all pitcrew
-saftey glasses for everyone in the pit area
-no children in the pits
-fuel testing
That should shut most people up.
Then well see who is running near or at the front, STILL :o ::) :-\
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1 round only as this would save on costs too.
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Jeeze mate, you were so happy a couple of posts ago, what happened? I know moving house is stressful, but did the removalists steal your Wham CD collection or something?!?! ;D
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Boy George / Vanilla Ice
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I could live with all of those rule changes - except the no children one.
... a nationals would be no fun without Sam there! :D